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	<title>Comments on: A low-mass top in single top events ?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2006/11/20/a-low-mass-top-in-single-top-events/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2006/11/20/a-low-mass-top-in-single-top-events/</link>
	<description>private thoughts of a physicist and chessplayer</description>
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		<title>By: Single top: new results from CDF! &#171; A Quantum Diaries Survivor</title>
		<link>http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2006/11/20/a-low-mass-top-in-single-top-events/#comment-76847</link>
		<dc:creator>Single top: new results from CDF! &#171; A Quantum Diaries Survivor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Oct 2007 19:05:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2006/11/20/a-low-mass-top-in-single-top-events/#comment-76847</guid>
		<description>[...] top quark mass of candidate events with a high value of EDT, a plot which last year caused some discussion (echoed  for the D0 analysis), given that it showed some excess at 140 GeV which could fit [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] top quark mass of candidate events with a high value of EDT, a plot which last year caused some discussion (echoed  for the D0 analysis), given that it showed some excess at 140 GeV which could fit [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tony Smith</title>
		<link>http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2006/11/20/a-low-mass-top-in-single-top-events/#comment-14954</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Nov 2006 21:00:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2006/11/20/a-low-mass-top-in-single-top-events/#comment-14954</guid>
		<description>Since my web site is big and can be hard to navigate, 
and since I don&#039;t have all the individual images for my html page 
on singeTquark at CDF uploaded yet, I should say that my ideas 
about singleTquark at CDF can be found at  

http://www.valdostamuseum.org/hamsmith/CDFSingleT.pdf

Tony Smith
http://www.valdostamuseum.org/hamsmith/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since my web site is big and can be hard to navigate,<br />
and since I don&#8217;t have all the individual images for my html page<br />
on singeTquark at CDF uploaded yet, I should say that my ideas<br />
about singleTquark at CDF can be found at  </p>
<p><a href="http://www.valdostamuseum.org/hamsmith/CDFSingleT.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.valdostamuseum.org/hamsmith/CDFSingleT.pdf</a></p>
<p>Tony Smith<br />
<a href="http://www.valdostamuseum.org/hamsmith/" rel="nofollow">http://www.valdostamuseum.org/hamsmith/</a></p>
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		<title>By: dorigo</title>
		<link>http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2006/11/20/a-low-mass-top-in-single-top-events/#comment-14952</link>
		<dc:creator>dorigo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Nov 2006 19:06:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2006/11/20/a-low-mass-top-in-single-top-events/#comment-14952</guid>
		<description>Dear Tony,

thank you for this very informative comment. Despite its mention of several physicists - I&#039;m glad to say many of which are still in good health, and not just the deceased as poor Rich Dalitz - I will give it more visibility by pasting it as an independent post. Of course, if the involved parties have anything to say about the whole thing, they are welcome to comment...

Cheers,
T.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Tony,</p>
<p>thank you for this very informative comment. Despite its mention of several physicists &#8211; I&#8217;m glad to say many of which are still in good health, and not just the deceased as poor Rich Dalitz &#8211; I will give it more visibility by pasting it as an independent post. Of course, if the involved parties have anything to say about the whole thing, they are welcome to comment&#8230;</p>
<p>Cheers,<br />
T.</p>
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		<title>By: Tony Smith</title>
		<link>http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2006/11/20/a-low-mass-top-in-single-top-events/#comment-14950</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Nov 2006 18:19:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2006/11/20/a-low-mass-top-in-single-top-events/#comment-14950</guid>
		<description>Tomasso, thanks for posting this blog entry. 
As you said in an e-mail message, you &quot;... I think one more year -two times the data we have analyzed so far- will give ... a more clear answer. ..&quot;. 
I look forward to more data, as it is experimental observation data that should determine which models are useful and which are not.

You and Andrea both mention the Sliwa - Goldstein - Dalitz situation 
back around 1992 in which personalities got involved in controversy. 

I met Richard Dalitz at a meeting in Waco, Texas, in 2002.
He told me that he had written a letter to the New Scientist expressing his concerns about the events around 1992, but that &quot;nobody ever read it&quot;. 
When I told him that I was at least one counterexample who had read his letter, we had extensive conversation about it. He made it clear to me that he was very unhappy with the personal conflicts that had arisen, and that he felt that the conflict was primarily due to irresponsible journalism by the New Scientist writer William Bown. 
Unfortunately, Richard Dalitz is now deceased. So that his views might get a wider audience, here is a copy of his letter to the New Scientist (15 August 1992, page 47) regarding the matter, captioned &quot;Top quark&quot;: 

&quot;With regard to William Bown’s article on the so-called discovery of a top quark (This Week, 27 June), when I spoke with him I did not claim to have found the top quark. 
That is a job for an experimenter, whereas I am a theoretical physicist. 
The “earlier paper” he mentions gave a speculative analysis of an event already published by the collider detector (CDF) group at Fermilab, but there was no claim that this event was due to top-antitop production and decay. 
We were completely open and told Bown the current situation in this research, and even sent him copies of our three papers on top-antitop event analysis. 
The CDF group at Fermilab is not blocking the publication of any paper of ours. 
I should note here that we would never publish data from any group, 
unless it has given us formal permission to do so or has already published it itself. We have never done so in the past, and will not do so in the future. 
When Bown asked me what, supposing that a top quark were found now, 
would be the effect on the Tevatron Main Injector project, I told him that this upgrading programme would then have the highest priority, since the Tevatron would be the only accelerator capable of top quark studies before the next century. His statement in the last paragraph that money spent on the Tevatron upgrade would be wasted is opposite to what I said. 
Richard Dalitz
Department of theoretical physics
University of Oxford&quot;. 


I should mention that, back in 1992, I was interested in the Sliwa - Goldstein - Dalitz analysis because it seemed to support my theoretical calculation of Tquark mass. 

When the book mentioned by Andrea, “The Evidence for the Top Quark: Objectivity and Bias in Collaborative Experimentation”, by Kent Staley, appeared, I noticed that it mentioned the Sliwa - Goldstein - Dalitz situation, and I had some e-mail correspondence with Kent Staley, who said: 
&quot;... Krys Sliwa ... certainly was skeptical of the standard CDF 
interpretation of the data, even after the 1995 Observation of Top 
Quark paper (PRL 74(14): 2626), in particular suggesting that, even if 
the top quark was contributing to the excess, there might be something 
more there as well. I did not get specifics from him, however (he would 
not agree to be interviewed in person, but only to answer by letter 
questions that I submitted to him). ...&quot;. 

I also had e-mail discussion with Krzysztof Sliwa, in which he said that he &quot;... always felt that the &quot;official&quot; interpretation of the CDF top candidate 
events in Run-I could be too simplistic ...&quot;. 
 
That line of thought seems to be in the epilogue of Staley&#039;s book, which says: 
&quot;... Sliwa struck a hopeful note with regard to just those things in the data that threaten our current understanding. Even when experimenters find that they have achieved experimenter&#039;s success, they look more closely to see the interesting flaw in their achievement - the discrepancy that will mean, not failure necessarily, but the possibility of some new success to strive for. Just as the prelude to discovery should not be seen in terms of a monotonic preparation for the discovery that occurs, so the aftermath of discovery should not be seen as the straightforward unfolding of the consequences of the knowledge thus gained. CDF and D-zero went to great lengths to establish that they now know some things about the world that were previously unknown. Just as important is the probing of this new realm of information to find out just what it is that we do not yet know. ...&quot;. 

Tony Smith
http://www.valdostamuseum.org/hamsmith/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tomasso, thanks for posting this blog entry.<br />
As you said in an e-mail message, you &#8220;&#8230; I think one more year -two times the data we have analyzed so far- will give &#8230; a more clear answer. ..&#8221;.<br />
I look forward to more data, as it is experimental observation data that should determine which models are useful and which are not.</p>
<p>You and Andrea both mention the Sliwa &#8211; Goldstein &#8211; Dalitz situation<br />
back around 1992 in which personalities got involved in controversy. </p>
<p>I met Richard Dalitz at a meeting in Waco, Texas, in 2002.<br />
He told me that he had written a letter to the New Scientist expressing his concerns about the events around 1992, but that &#8220;nobody ever read it&#8221;.<br />
When I told him that I was at least one counterexample who had read his letter, we had extensive conversation about it. He made it clear to me that he was very unhappy with the personal conflicts that had arisen, and that he felt that the conflict was primarily due to irresponsible journalism by the New Scientist writer William Bown.<br />
Unfortunately, Richard Dalitz is now deceased. So that his views might get a wider audience, here is a copy of his letter to the New Scientist (15 August 1992, page 47) regarding the matter, captioned &#8220;Top quark&#8221;: </p>
<p>&#8220;With regard to William Bown’s article on the so-called discovery of a top quark (This Week, 27 June), when I spoke with him I did not claim to have found the top quark.<br />
That is a job for an experimenter, whereas I am a theoretical physicist.<br />
The “earlier paper” he mentions gave a speculative analysis of an event already published by the collider detector (CDF) group at Fermilab, but there was no claim that this event was due to top-antitop production and decay.<br />
We were completely open and told Bown the current situation in this research, and even sent him copies of our three papers on top-antitop event analysis.<br />
The CDF group at Fermilab is not blocking the publication of any paper of ours.<br />
I should note here that we would never publish data from any group,<br />
unless it has given us formal permission to do so or has already published it itself. We have never done so in the past, and will not do so in the future.<br />
When Bown asked me what, supposing that a top quark were found now,<br />
would be the effect on the Tevatron Main Injector project, I told him that this upgrading programme would then have the highest priority, since the Tevatron would be the only accelerator capable of top quark studies before the next century. His statement in the last paragraph that money spent on the Tevatron upgrade would be wasted is opposite to what I said.<br />
Richard Dalitz<br />
Department of theoretical physics<br />
University of Oxford&#8221;. </p>
<p>I should mention that, back in 1992, I was interested in the Sliwa &#8211; Goldstein &#8211; Dalitz analysis because it seemed to support my theoretical calculation of Tquark mass. </p>
<p>When the book mentioned by Andrea, “The Evidence for the Top Quark: Objectivity and Bias in Collaborative Experimentation”, by Kent Staley, appeared, I noticed that it mentioned the Sliwa &#8211; Goldstein &#8211; Dalitz situation, and I had some e-mail correspondence with Kent Staley, who said:<br />
&#8220;&#8230; Krys Sliwa &#8230; certainly was skeptical of the standard CDF<br />
interpretation of the data, even after the 1995 Observation of Top<br />
Quark paper (PRL 74(14): 2626), in particular suggesting that, even if<br />
the top quark was contributing to the excess, there might be something<br />
more there as well. I did not get specifics from him, however (he would<br />
not agree to be interviewed in person, but only to answer by letter<br />
questions that I submitted to him). &#8230;&#8221;. </p>
<p>I also had e-mail discussion with Krzysztof Sliwa, in which he said that he &#8220;&#8230; always felt that the &#8220;official&#8221; interpretation of the CDF top candidate<br />
events in Run-I could be too simplistic &#8230;&#8221;. </p>
<p>That line of thought seems to be in the epilogue of Staley&#8217;s book, which says:<br />
&#8220;&#8230; Sliwa struck a hopeful note with regard to just those things in the data that threaten our current understanding. Even when experimenters find that they have achieved experimenter&#8217;s success, they look more closely to see the interesting flaw in their achievement &#8211; the discrepancy that will mean, not failure necessarily, but the possibility of some new success to strive for. Just as the prelude to discovery should not be seen in terms of a monotonic preparation for the discovery that occurs, so the aftermath of discovery should not be seen as the straightforward unfolding of the consequences of the knowledge thus gained. CDF and D-zero went to great lengths to establish that they now know some things about the world that were previously unknown. Just as important is the probing of this new realm of information to find out just what it is that we do not yet know. &#8230;&#8221;. </p>
<p>Tony Smith<br />
<a href="http://www.valdostamuseum.org/hamsmith/" rel="nofollow">http://www.valdostamuseum.org/hamsmith/</a></p>
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		<title>By: dorigo</title>
		<link>http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2006/11/20/a-low-mass-top-in-single-top-events/#comment-14939</link>
		<dc:creator>dorigo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Nov 2006 12:57:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2006/11/20/a-low-mass-top-in-single-top-events/#comment-14939</guid>
		<description>Well Alejandro, you certainly might have missed a lot of exciting developments in the top sector as you stayed locked in your ivory tower in the nineties, but in a nutshell, things have not evolved much as far as our knowledge is concerned since then... Of course we know that the top quark exists, that its mass is 172 GeV give or take 1%, that it is produced as it should. But as you well know we still cannot answer the very basic questions we could not answer in 1990. And I cannot claim we can disprove Tony&#039;s bold idea yet. At least, I know nobody who took the matter seriously enough to run a simulation yet.

As for your aborted early branching into experimental physics, well, we seem to have so many skilled experimentalists around and so few free thinking theoreticians, that I am glad you populate the latter.

Cheers,
T.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well Alejandro, you certainly might have missed a lot of exciting developments in the top sector as you stayed locked in your ivory tower in the nineties, but in a nutshell, things have not evolved much as far as our knowledge is concerned since then&#8230; Of course we know that the top quark exists, that its mass is 172 GeV give or take 1%, that it is produced as it should. But as you well know we still cannot answer the very basic questions we could not answer in 1990. And I cannot claim we can disprove Tony&#8217;s bold idea yet. At least, I know nobody who took the matter seriously enough to run a simulation yet.</p>
<p>As for your aborted early branching into experimental physics, well, we seem to have so many skilled experimentalists around and so few free thinking theoreticians, that I am glad you populate the latter.</p>
<p>Cheers,<br />
T.</p>
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		<title>By: Alejandro Rivero</title>
		<link>http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2006/11/20/a-low-mass-top-in-single-top-events/#comment-14936</link>
		<dc:creator>Alejandro Rivero</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Nov 2006 11:55:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2006/11/20/a-low-mass-top-in-single-top-events/#comment-14936</guid>
		<description>Tomasso, I think that it is enough that you are keeping track of these ideas in the blog. Perhaps nobody can seriouusly to claim to know what things will be worthwhile after the LHC (and your 2nd round). 

As for Tony, I am grateful of his own bookkeeping about the top history. Somehow I was in my own ivory tower -or cellar- between computers and theoretists and I missed all the developments. Had I known better back in 1990, I could have though aboing doing the doctorate in some of the experimentalist groups (on other hand, I was told they were afraid whenever I was near a cryostat in the ILL neutron beam).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tomasso, I think that it is enough that you are keeping track of these ideas in the blog. Perhaps nobody can seriouusly to claim to know what things will be worthwhile after the LHC (and your 2nd round). </p>
<p>As for Tony, I am grateful of his own bookkeeping about the top history. Somehow I was in my own ivory tower -or cellar- between computers and theoretists and I missed all the developments. Had I known better back in 1990, I could have though aboing doing the doctorate in some of the experimentalist groups (on other hand, I was told they were afraid whenever I was near a cryostat in the ILL neutron beam).</p>
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		<title>By: dorigo</title>
		<link>http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2006/11/20/a-low-mass-top-in-single-top-events/#comment-14922</link>
		<dc:creator>dorigo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Nov 2006 08:19:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2006/11/20/a-low-mass-top-in-single-top-events/#comment-14922</guid>
		<description>Hi Kea,

I am not in the position to comment meaningfully on whether the ideas of Tony are solid or not, but I indeed find the whole thing stimulating, and will keep posting on it here.

Cheers,
T.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Kea,</p>
<p>I am not in the position to comment meaningfully on whether the ideas of Tony are solid or not, but I indeed find the whole thing stimulating, and will keep posting on it here.</p>
<p>Cheers,<br />
T.</p>
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		<title>By: dorigo</title>
		<link>http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2006/11/20/a-low-mass-top-in-single-top-events/#comment-14921</link>
		<dc:creator>dorigo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Nov 2006 08:17:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2006/11/20/a-low-mass-top-in-single-top-events/#comment-14921</guid>
		<description>Hi Andrea,

:) I did not want to name names... Of course I know the names -I was there in 1992- but since you started, here is it. Back then, Krisztof Sliwa analyzed the ttbar candidate by CDF in the dileptonic final state with an analysis called &quot;neutrino weighting technique&quot; which has later become a standard, and worked with Dalitz and Goldstein on a paper which was not authorized by the CDF collaboration...

I will look at the paper if I have some time, thank you for pointing it out.

Cheers,
T.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Andrea,</p>
<p> <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  I did not want to name names&#8230; Of course I know the names -I was there in 1992- but since you started, here is it. Back then, Krisztof Sliwa analyzed the ttbar candidate by CDF in the dileptonic final state with an analysis called &#8220;neutrino weighting technique&#8221; which has later become a standard, and worked with Dalitz and Goldstein on a paper which was not authorized by the CDF collaboration&#8230;</p>
<p>I will look at the paper if I have some time, thank you for pointing it out.</p>
<p>Cheers,<br />
T.</p>
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		<title>By: Kea</title>
		<link>http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2006/11/20/a-low-mass-top-in-single-top-events/#comment-14899</link>
		<dc:creator>Kea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Nov 2006 23:01:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2006/11/20/a-low-mass-top-in-single-top-events/#comment-14899</guid>
		<description>Go Tony! There are certainly some exciting times ahead. I&#039;m not at all sure how the single top will come out in a rigorous mathematical analysis - we need more people to work on this. But the tt Higgs idea is looking pretty solid.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Go Tony! There are certainly some exciting times ahead. I&#8217;m not at all sure how the single top will come out in a rigorous mathematical analysis &#8211; we need more people to work on this. But the tt Higgs idea is looking pretty solid.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrea Giammanco</title>
		<link>http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2006/11/20/a-low-mass-top-in-single-top-events/#comment-14895</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrea Giammanco</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Nov 2006 18:55:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2006/11/20/a-low-mass-top-in-single-top-events/#comment-14895</guid>
		<description>One of the two outsiders that you are mentioning was Dalitz, the one who gave the name to Dalitz plots.
I would like to have your opinion, some time, on &quot;The Evidence for the Top Quark: Objectivity and Bias in Collaborative Experimentation&quot;, by Kent Staley. The author is a philosopher of science who took the CDF paper with the 3 sigma evidence for top quark, and its aftermath, as a case study for his theory of how a consensus is formed about a discovery in modern physics.
In making this book, he interviewed several members of the CDF collaboration of the time and had access to the minutes of all the internal meetings.
Usually physicists are very hostile against philosophers of science, since some of them tend to assign a weight to subjectivity, in the process of scientific reasoning, that we consider an overestimation. But Staley&#039;s analysis of the top discovery proves to the cultured layman that subjectivity was properly wiped out during the lenghty and painful process of approval of the result.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the two outsiders that you are mentioning was Dalitz, the one who gave the name to Dalitz plots.<br />
I would like to have your opinion, some time, on &#8220;The Evidence for the Top Quark: Objectivity and Bias in Collaborative Experimentation&#8221;, by Kent Staley. The author is a philosopher of science who took the CDF paper with the 3 sigma evidence for top quark, and its aftermath, as a case study for his theory of how a consensus is formed about a discovery in modern physics.<br />
In making this book, he interviewed several members of the CDF collaboration of the time and had access to the minutes of all the internal meetings.<br />
Usually physicists are very hostile against philosophers of science, since some of them tend to assign a weight to subjectivity, in the process of scientific reasoning, that we consider an overestimation. But Staley&#8217;s analysis of the top discovery proves to the cultured layman that subjectivity was properly wiped out during the lenghty and painful process of approval of the result.</p>
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