just one thing – not “my” disgraced country, but ours. You are italian as well. Your IP address, your poor english, and your twisted knowledge of italian lore betray that.

Cheers,
T.

You are a communist. I had no doubts about. You are not much different from all other people thinking that we can trade freedom for poor ideas proved to be wrong.

You are not reasoning like a physicist and like you a lot of people of your very disgraced country.

Rob

Well, by the way, wikipedia was not *my* source of knowledge about those facts, since I was reading italian newspapers at the time when the president of the italian republic admitted that he had always known about Gladio and other old statesmen leaked other informations. But I felt the urge of providing the foreigner readers with a rather complete although synthetic source, as wikipedia is, in order to not be dismissed as a fan of conspiration theories, because I realize that some dark pieces of national history sound very much so

We can argue whether Nagasaki was one too many or two too many, but the way you put that, and the other things of which the west is responsible (not just the USA), gives me rest. Because I know you have quite different ideas from mine, and the fact that you still are willing to strongly criticize those events makes me willing to concede on my side that yes, communism gave the power to a few deranged minds to perpetrate horrendous crimes. Stalin and Pol Pot are in the hall of fame with only a few more people in the XX century. I agree, communism is a failed attempt at a better world, who went really wrong. Yes, if you count dead heads, probably nazists come first, communists seconds, and curtis le may and his comrades come close thirds.

See, you give it for granted that there are things the US and their allies did that can be considered crimes against humanity. I do too, but I very seldom see it admitted from the people who attack ex-communists. Once I hear it from your side, I am much relieved. We can then start more constructive discussions.

Cheers,
T.

I am NOT forgetting history. It seems you ignore it or are white washing it in a anti-historic attempt to put all tragedies on the same footing. You are also selling out too quickly the word “democratic”. By giving it away you are doing us all great disservice.

Regards you lip service to accepting criticisisms of communism and then proposing similar critiscism to the West (the U.S. of A.). I firmly believe we should all be claiming, with no qualifiers (“BUT…”, “However…”,…), that one of the two horrendous tragedies of the 20th century was COMMUNISM. Not on the same philosohpical level as NAZI/Fascism as Fred and I too believe? OK. But I find it contradictory to insist on pointing out the differences in the tragedies and horrors of communism with nazi/fascism on the one hand and then deny differences between those of the West and in particular of the U.S.of A. This is either intellectual dishonesty or an error of logic.

If you say that there is no anti-communist criticism of the west and of the U.S. is not only FLASE, but it is offensive and intellectually DISHONEST. No… now that I think about it, as I know you personally, I think it is just a stupid mistake. I think you should stop and take back what you said. I truely hope others in this dying thread will point it out too.

I am not saying the West and the U.S.of A. in particular is above severe critiscism. The U.S.A. has made terrible, inhumane and disgusting mistakes of dropping one too many bombs (Nagasaki), of putting up with Pinochet’s buchery. They certainly screwed up in Vietnam an now in Iraq and the toll in human lives is outrageuosly high. ALL of the these, and many more, were AND are CRITICIZED by AUTHENTIC ANTI-COMMUNISTS and ANTI-FASCISTS/NAZIS. In particular in the U.S.A. there is has a huge anti-war movement that is CREDIBLE and authentically DEMOCRATIC. Many are busy studying history of these tragedies. Some of the best and honest historians that are telling the tragedies of the WW2 and the cold war are TRUELY DEMOCRATIC. Some of the best journalists that made social history in telling with bravery and intellecual honesty the tragedies of war in general and the mistakes and true nature of the U.S interventions are AUTHENTICALLY DEMOCRATIC. For me it is a matter of credebility. Some, too many, individuals that are so anti-war here in Italy are not credible at all. Its that outrageously simple.

not to revive a dying thread, but rather apologizing for not following it enough, I want to make one point.

Jeff, when you use XXth century bloodsheds to accuse of dishumanity many who still have in their bones some remnants of communist ideology, you maybe do not realize -or acknowledge- that your targets usually accept that criticism, trying to explain that the ideas of communism are not directly the cause of the massacres, and that they too are horrified by the gulags, by pol pot’s cleansing the slate, by USSR imperialism.

Once that discussion is over, though, I never hear a similar criticism by the anti-communist spontaneously arising toward the imperialism of western countries, which caused and is causing huge amounts of suffering to this day throughout the world, but cannot be criticized because hey, they won the war (hiroshima, nagasaki), have kept a world order (corea, vietnam, support to tyrants such as pinochet, franco,…) and are exporting democracy (Iraq, afghanistan, somalia).

I mean to say: the game of casting stones is useless among civil people who genuinely are democratic and against violence, because nobody is going to stand when it’s over. Let’s just not forget history and most of all, let’s try to avoid people from rewriting it anew.

Cheers,
T.

Now this is too funny for the both of us. I am a living contradiction in terms of my philosophical points of view and I actually stalemate myself at times. It’s very difficult to be an advocate for any political front. That’s why sports, music, the arts, science and literature are my true friends. (lol – how do you take the politics out of those fields?) As military dependents, my friends and I silently rooted for the peace movement while we watched fresh ‘cargo’ from Vietnam being unloaded and lined up on the tarmac almost every single day for 3 years at Andrews Air Force Base, 1966-69. Thousands. Nobody ever said anything about it, but as 10-12 year old kids, we knew what the score was. All involved in the conflict were responsible for the results. But my greatest concern will always be of the fascist and right wing movements of civilization. And yes, you can throw the current russian and chinese governments as well as our current administration into this group also. They have always been proud of their goals and achievements. To righteously beat people into submission and forge humanity into a rigid structure is the ultimate crime. Agreed, ‘both sides’ have espoused this mentality. We are a victim of our own selfishness and survival instincts so we readily distort any ideology that we gravitate towards. Communism will never be a viable option because it cannot be logically nor logistically enacted. The most populated country in the world is a living and breathing capitalist machine. There is no communism in the world. We have solely been using this term for 150 years to control people. It was and still is very convenient. As far as not filling in the gap between idealization and realization, it would have went on forever. And here’s what’s funny: the infamous Sartre and Picasso were two of my great inspirations to passionately engage with life and the actual conditions in which we find ourselves. I will always love Jean-Paul despite his belief that sociopolitical solutions can be the proper means to an end if sanctioned by rational people. Among many of his miscalculations was the believe that revolutions could be bloodless if directed properly by collective bargaining combined with economic, judicial and social parity. He had blind faith in people that proposed the rise of the working class (but aren’t we all workers?). But mostly he had the courage to take on the French government’s re-pursuit of aggressive action internationally and domestically following its own liberation. He was the lone figure of hope for millions of european youths that were disillusioned and suffocated by the misnomered post-war world. He stood by them when most of the ‘free world’ institutions received financial compensation and considerations to actively support and passively watch the western and eastern powers once again use the world as a convenient battlefield. We are mostly cowards. He was anything but in his twilight years. Most of all, though, thank you for always being provocative and questioning.

p.s. While watching a number political rallies in Napoli from ‘72-’74, the one thing that the speakers from all the competing factions (PCI, PSI, etal.) enjoyed were the cheers they received when the U.S.A. was invoked basically as the Evil Empire. This usually culminated the rallies and the crowd would disperse with great fanfare and energy. I’ll never forget the loud speakers blaring through the streets of Bagnoli; Abbasso Nixon! Vota Communista!

In any case, we should trust the ruling because it is based on the analysis of facts, which is something alien to the logic of Il Giornale, known for its biased propaganda (Jeff be arbiter here). Facts that have been known for 60 years now. The massacre of the Ardeatine is too relevant a piece of italian history to rewrite it at will.

Cheers,
T.

If the ruling would have been otherwise the remains of what was PCI would rise up in arms.

Certainly the communist of the early 80s were of a different breed compared to the earlier generations. Were they really blood-handed? No because the communist oceanic blood sheds occurred elsewhere in the world. In Italy they were simply anti-fascist. Most were provincial enough, thank God, to go on with their lives in peace and only paid lip service the crap of world communism under soviet auspices. All 12 million wanted soviet style communism in 1983? Of course not! (Else I would really be digusted by human nature). But amoung those 12 million there were not a few that really did dispise western democracy. They were quite dispicable. And some of them were so-called intellectuals! Dispicable to the second degree!

As I said the history of the PCI is a complicated one and many myths still have to be broken down and hidden truths revealed. But the communists and ex-communists will never, in my eyes write a credible and complete history. Communists have have a great ability to absolve themselves. If foul play and even blood-shed occurred, then it must have been a historic necessity. They are like creationists. They choose and manipulate the evidence to suit their vision of History. It will take a truely neutral historian to contextualize and analyse the PCI and what is left of it.

I think it is a matter of using words one way or another. I felt a communist for a long time, without wanting a new social order. Was I wrong ? I think I wasn’t, because what I meant by being a communist was supporting the parties that wanted to change things democratically in Italy. I was proud of what I voted for then as I am now.

About people who “absolutely did NOT vote PCI because they did not want to vote for others”: recall that in 1983 34% of voters chose PCI, after Berlinguer died. Before then, the party was at or above 30%. Do you really think 12 million people in Italy were for a soviet style system ? Come on. Much of the strength acquired in the seventies by the left parties in Italy came from loathe of DC and PSI. PCI, as Andrea correctly mentioned, never made a politics of confrontation. They accepted the system, even a bit too much – something that even Berlusconi can now criticize. Why should their voters be considered blood-handed revolutionaries ?

Cheers,
T.

To say that those that voted PCI really weren’t communists is quite funny. Maybe that is the way you felt Tommaso. I immediately say that I know many people that are proud to have been communists and some still are! They absolutely did NOT vote PCI because they did not want to vote for others. They did not vote for the PCI because they wanted to “fight for better conditions for the working class, less exploitation in the workplace, a social system implying a strong redistribution of wealth through health care and a high quality schooling and university system, access to cheap housing. The right to a happy life for the “proletariato”. They voted PCI because they believed in Communism, wanted a new social order and despised western type demoracies!

Jeff

p.s. Don’t believe everything you read on Wikipedia.

if I read you correctly (do I?), you blame the partisans for hitting an easy target. “Heroes ? They bombed a squad of white collars, the sissies!”. I loathe that line of reasoning because it purposely neglects to recognize the enormous difficulty of organizing a resistence to the occupying forces, at the constant risk of one’s own life and that of one’s relatives.

War is fought with the means one has. War is not a clean game of risiko on a velvet table. It is a dirty, horrendous business, which brings out the animals in all its actors. Could the GAP find a better target ? Perhaps. Does it mean they were not justified in doing their utmost to counter the nazists ? I hope you can answer that yourself.

Cheers,
T.