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	<title>Comments on: Toward a 2.3/fb W mass measurement</title>
	<atom:link href="http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2008/08/21/toward-a-23fb-w-mass-measurement/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2008/08/21/toward-a-23fb-w-mass-measurement/</link>
	<description>private thoughts of a physicist and chessplayer</description>
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		<item>
		<title>By: dorigo</title>
		<link>http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2008/08/21/toward-a-23fb-w-mass-measurement/#comment-100120</link>
		<dc:creator>dorigo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Sep 2008 22:34:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dorigo.wordpress.com/?p=1423#comment-100120</guid>
		<description>Yes Flip, no completed analysis yet, no paper. Once there is an updated Mw measurement, there also will be a new paper...
T.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes Flip, no completed analysis yet, no paper. Once there is an updated Mw measurement, there also will be a new paper&#8230;<br />
T.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: fliptomato</title>
		<link>http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2008/08/21/toward-a-23fb-w-mass-measurement/#comment-100119</link>
		<dc:creator>fliptomato</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Sep 2008 22:06:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dorigo.wordpress.com/?p=1423#comment-100119</guid>
		<description>Hi again Tommaso -- is there a paper associated with the new plots, or should we just refer to the 2007 paper?

-F</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi again Tommaso &#8212; is there a paper associated with the new plots, or should we just refer to the 2007 paper?</p>
<p>-F</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: dorigo</title>
		<link>http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2008/08/21/toward-a-23fb-w-mass-measurement/#comment-100064</link>
		<dc:creator>dorigo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Sep 2008 07:20:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dorigo.wordpress.com/?p=1423#comment-100064</guid>
		<description>Oh, I see. I even think I ran into the explanation once! Yes I did. I&#039;m just growing old and retarded.

Cheers,
T.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, I see. I even think I ran into the explanation once! Yes I did. I&#8217;m just growing old and retarded.</p>
<p>Cheers,<br />
T.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Alejandro Rivero</title>
		<link>http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2008/08/21/toward-a-23fb-w-mass-measurement/#comment-99982</link>
		<dc:creator>Alejandro Rivero</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2008 22:44:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dorigo.wordpress.com/?p=1423#comment-99982</guid>
		<description>Dorigo, do not worry, it is just one of out collection of numerical guessing in www.physicsforums.com. In this case, Hans did the relativistic De Broglie approximation for a circular orbit in two cases, for total angular momentum L=1/2 and L=1 (translated to quantum sqrt(L(L+1)) and then he quotients the orbital speed, or frequencies if you wish, so that he gets and adimensional number, independent of the orbital radius. Damn me if I know why Hans did it, it is just very good in the work of getting a formula for a result.  But yep, the quotient is as good a Weinberg cosine as you can get.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dorigo, do not worry, it is just one of out collection of numerical guessing in <a href="http://www.physicsforums.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.physicsforums.com</a>. In this case, Hans did the relativistic De Broglie approximation for a circular orbit in two cases, for total angular momentum L=1/2 and L=1 (translated to quantum sqrt(L(L+1)) and then he quotients the orbital speed, or frequencies if you wish, so that he gets and adimensional number, independent of the orbital radius. Damn me if I know why Hans did it, it is just very good in the work of getting a formula for a result.  But yep, the quotient is as good a Weinberg cosine as you can get.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: dorigo</title>
		<link>http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2008/08/21/toward-a-23fb-w-mass-measurement/#comment-99973</link>
		<dc:creator>dorigo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2008 16:22:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dorigo.wordpress.com/?p=1423#comment-99973</guid>
		<description>Hi Alejandro,

sorry for the ignorance, but do you have a quick reference to HDV&#039;s work on W mass predictions ?

Cheers,
T.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Alejandro,</p>
<p>sorry for the ignorance, but do you have a quick reference to HDV&#8217;s work on W mass predictions ?</p>
<p>Cheers,<br />
T.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Alejandro Rivero</title>
		<link>http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2008/08/21/toward-a-23fb-w-mass-measurement/#comment-99965</link>
		<dc:creator>Alejandro Rivero</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2008 13:13:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dorigo.wordpress.com/?p=1423#comment-99965</guid>
		<description>The 2004 relativistic prediction/estimate from Hans de Vries leaves the ballpark (from pdf 2008 mass of Z) in the fork 80.3763..80.3726 GeV. Current pdg value, 80.398 pm 0.025, still intersects with the estimate, with some stress if you wish. As in the case of the top mass, it is not really important if the new value discrepates or not; de Vries theory does not account for corrections of the order of pi/alpha etc. But it will be interesting/amusing to see how far it comes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The 2004 relativistic prediction/estimate from Hans de Vries leaves the ballpark (from pdf 2008 mass of Z) in the fork 80.3763..80.3726 GeV. Current pdg value, 80.398 pm 0.025, still intersects with the estimate, with some stress if you wish. As in the case of the top mass, it is not really important if the new value discrepates or not; de Vries theory does not account for corrections of the order of pi/alpha etc. But it will be interesting/amusing to see how far it comes.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: dorigo</title>
		<link>http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2008/08/21/toward-a-23fb-w-mass-measurement/#comment-99847</link>
		<dc:creator>dorigo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 14:05:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dorigo.wordpress.com/?p=1423#comment-99847</guid>
		<description>Hi Markk,

no, the Monte Carlo is really a precise simulation if the physics of the collision - the interaction, the emitted particles, the hadronization, the decays in flight. Then there is a simulation of the interaction of these bodies with the detector material, and simulated readouts of the detector components. Some parts are parametrized, but most is simulated to the best of our knowledge. A Monte Carlo event looks exactly like a real one after reconstruction, except for the presence of an additional bank containing the particle level information.

Cheers,
T.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Markk,</p>
<p>no, the Monte Carlo is really a precise simulation if the physics of the collision &#8211; the interaction, the emitted particles, the hadronization, the decays in flight. Then there is a simulation of the interaction of these bodies with the detector material, and simulated readouts of the detector components. Some parts are parametrized, but most is simulated to the best of our knowledge. A Monte Carlo event looks exactly like a real one after reconstruction, except for the presence of an additional bank containing the particle level information.</p>
<p>Cheers,<br />
T.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: dorigo</title>
		<link>http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2008/08/21/toward-a-23fb-w-mass-measurement/#comment-99846</link>
		<dc:creator>dorigo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 14:03:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dorigo.wordpress.com/?p=1423#comment-99846</guid>
		<description>Hi Flip, 

let&#039;s see if I can answer your questions.
Using the Z to calibrate the calorimeter response to 40 GeV electrons is a good way but not the preferred one. The E/P method is more precise.

The recoil modeling is very important in the W mass measurement. In fact, it is one of the most important parts of the study. The recoil is modeled on Z-&gt;ee and Z-&gt;mm decays, and then the Monte Carlo is used to extrapolate to the W. 

The Z-&gt;ll BR can be measured only in the ratio $latex \frac {\sigma_W B(e \nu)}{\sigma_Z B(ee)}$ (it is about 10). Through it one can get a direct measurement of the W width, by the way.

Using the transverse mass is better than using the lepton Pt because of the recoil: the transverse mass is less sensitive on the recoil modeling - although the neutrino missing Et is then to be measured accurately.

Yes, the E/p relate to the electron measurement.

No, the bremsstrahlung occurs whenever the electron passes close to heavy-Z atoms. This occurs throughout its path. The soft photons get collected in a cluster of calorimeter energy, and are measured together with the electron shower.

The tracker measures the five parameters of a track helix. There is a 1.4 Tesla axial magnetic field, and there are stereo layers in the tracker that allow z-coordinate measurements. Track momenta are tuned precisely with J/psi mesons, Y mesons, Z bosons, to a very good accuracy (see the recent mass measurement of the X meson, I discussed it a week ago here).

When you reconstruct a transverse mass, you lose the z component of momenta. So the Mt is strictly smaller than the true M. That explains the skewed jacobian peak. The precise distribution depends on how central W production is, and that depends on PDF, on detector acceptance, etcetera...

Hope that helps.
Cheers,
T.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Flip, </p>
<p>let&#8217;s see if I can answer your questions.<br />
Using the Z to calibrate the calorimeter response to 40 GeV electrons is a good way but not the preferred one. The E/P method is more precise.</p>
<p>The recoil modeling is very important in the W mass measurement. In fact, it is one of the most important parts of the study. The recoil is modeled on Z-&gt;ee and Z-&gt;mm decays, and then the Monte Carlo is used to extrapolate to the W. </p>
<p>The Z-&gt;ll BR can be measured only in the ratio <img src='http://l.wordpress.com/latex.php?latex=%5Cfrac+%7B%5Csigma_W+B%28e+%5Cnu%29%7D%7B%5Csigma_Z+B%28ee%29%7D&#038;bg=ffffff&#038;fg=000000&#038;s=0' alt='\frac {\sigma_W B(e \nu)}{\sigma_Z B(ee)}' title='\frac {\sigma_W B(e \nu)}{\sigma_Z B(ee)}' class='latex' /> (it is about 10). Through it one can get a direct measurement of the W width, by the way.</p>
<p>Using the transverse mass is better than using the lepton Pt because of the recoil: the transverse mass is less sensitive on the recoil modeling &#8211; although the neutrino missing Et is then to be measured accurately.</p>
<p>Yes, the E/p relate to the electron measurement.</p>
<p>No, the bremsstrahlung occurs whenever the electron passes close to heavy-Z atoms. This occurs throughout its path. The soft photons get collected in a cluster of calorimeter energy, and are measured together with the electron shower.</p>
<p>The tracker measures the five parameters of a track helix. There is a 1.4 Tesla axial magnetic field, and there are stereo layers in the tracker that allow z-coordinate measurements. Track momenta are tuned precisely with J/psi mesons, Y mesons, Z bosons, to a very good accuracy (see the recent mass measurement of the X meson, I discussed it a week ago here).</p>
<p>When you reconstruct a transverse mass, you lose the z component of momenta. So the Mt is strictly smaller than the true M. That explains the skewed jacobian peak. The precise distribution depends on how central W production is, and that depends on PDF, on detector acceptance, etcetera&#8230;</p>
<p>Hope that helps.<br />
Cheers,<br />
T.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Markk</title>
		<link>http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2008/08/21/toward-a-23fb-w-mass-measurement/#comment-99842</link>
		<dc:creator>Markk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 12:47:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dorigo.wordpress.com/?p=1423#comment-99842</guid>
		<description>Hi, 
  I am always awed by those fitted curves you present where the prediction is so close to real measures. A generic question about what you mean when you say Monte Carlo here. What exactly are you simulating? 

Do you have a physical model of the interaction region and the detectors and are running events like actual collisions, where you get outputs that look like collision pictures? Or do you have an interaction model for a particular detector and run off of a distribution for that? (e.g. a distribution of voltage values or temperature readings)  Or both? I could see where putting several of the second kinds of run together might give something different than the first.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi,<br />
  I am always awed by those fitted curves you present where the prediction is so close to real measures. A generic question about what you mean when you say Monte Carlo here. What exactly are you simulating? </p>
<p>Do you have a physical model of the interaction region and the detectors and are running events like actual collisions, where you get outputs that look like collision pictures? Or do you have an interaction model for a particular detector and run off of a distribution for that? (e.g. a distribution of voltage values or temperature readings)  Or both? I could see where putting several of the second kinds of run together might give something different than the first.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: fliptomato</title>
		<link>http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2008/08/21/toward-a-23fb-w-mass-measurement/#comment-99835</link>
		<dc:creator>fliptomato</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 04:37:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dorigo.wordpress.com/?p=1423#comment-99835</guid>
		<description>Hi Tommaso -- this is a really helpful post! A few questions:

1. If I understand correctly, then you use $latex Z\rightarrow ee$ to calibrate the electromagnetic calorimeter? Then this calibration is used to identify the energy of the electron in $latex W\rightarrow e\nu$?

What about hadronic recoil? E.g. $latex q\overline q \rightarrow g,Z \rightarrow g,e\nu$? This process is not so suppressed, especially when the gluon is close to collinear with the beam and one gets a factor of the strong coupling and a Sudakov logarithm. One would thus have a $latex W$ with nonzero transverse momentum and some hadronic jet. Isn&#039;t it then important to somehow model the jet so that an accurate determination of the $latex W$ mass/width can be done?

I naively thought (reading one of the CDF papers, arXiv:0707.0085) that measuring the $latex Z$ branching ratio had to do with some kind of modeling of the hadronic transverse momentum?

[My understanding is that plotting $latex d\sigma/dm_T$ instead of $latex d\sigma/dp_T$ helps in this case, but it&#039;s not obvious to me how this works.]

2. A very naive question: when you say that you look at the E/p distribution, which E and p are you using? Is this the electron E/p? Does this mean we&#039;re comparing the energy deposited in the calorimeter compared to the momentum extracted from tracking?

When you explained the tail on the E/p distribution, you said this was because of bremsstrahlung of high-energy electrons. So the sot photons count towards the energy in the calorimeter, but not the curving in the tracking used to fit the momentum. Since the tracking system is closer to the beam pipe than the calorimeter, are you saying that the bremsstrahlung occurs nearly instantaneously so that the electron radiates away photons before drifting through the tracking chamber?

Also, how do you know what the momentum $latex p$ is in the expression $latex E/p$? Presumably energy of an electron can be measured in the EM calorimeter, but we can&#039;t determine $latex p$ since we don&#039;t know the longitudinal component of momentum? (Or do we just use the information from the pseudorapidity of the deposited energy in the calorimeter?)

3. In your last plot of the distribution with respect to transverse mass, can you explain why the shape takes this form? My understanding is that there&#039;s a Jacobian peak that is smoothed out by various effects. Why is it that the `smoothing&#039; out causes the lower values of $latex m_T$ to be enhanced relative to the Jacobian peak?

Thanks very much!
Flip</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Tommaso &#8212; this is a really helpful post! A few questions:</p>
<p>1. If I understand correctly, then you use <img src='http://l.wordpress.com/latex.php?latex=Z%5Crightarrow+ee&#038;bg=ffffff&#038;fg=000000&#038;s=0' alt='Z\rightarrow ee' title='Z\rightarrow ee' class='latex' /> to calibrate the electromagnetic calorimeter? Then this calibration is used to identify the energy of the electron in <img src='http://l.wordpress.com/latex.php?latex=W%5Crightarrow+e%5Cnu&#038;bg=ffffff&#038;fg=000000&#038;s=0' alt='W\rightarrow e\nu' title='W\rightarrow e\nu' class='latex' />?</p>
<p>What about hadronic recoil? E.g. <img src='http://l.wordpress.com/latex.php?latex=q%5Coverline+q+%5Crightarrow+g%2CZ+%5Crightarrow+g%2Ce%5Cnu&#038;bg=ffffff&#038;fg=000000&#038;s=0' alt='q\overline q \rightarrow g,Z \rightarrow g,e\nu' title='q\overline q \rightarrow g,Z \rightarrow g,e\nu' class='latex' />? This process is not so suppressed, especially when the gluon is close to collinear with the beam and one gets a factor of the strong coupling and a Sudakov logarithm. One would thus have a <img src='http://l.wordpress.com/latex.php?latex=W&#038;bg=ffffff&#038;fg=000000&#038;s=0' alt='W' title='W' class='latex' /> with nonzero transverse momentum and some hadronic jet. Isn&#8217;t it then important to somehow model the jet so that an accurate determination of the <img src='http://l.wordpress.com/latex.php?latex=W&#038;bg=ffffff&#038;fg=000000&#038;s=0' alt='W' title='W' class='latex' /> mass/width can be done?</p>
<p>I naively thought (reading one of the CDF papers, arXiv:0707.0085) that measuring the <img src='http://l.wordpress.com/latex.php?latex=Z&#038;bg=ffffff&#038;fg=000000&#038;s=0' alt='Z' title='Z' class='latex' /> branching ratio had to do with some kind of modeling of the hadronic transverse momentum?</p>
<p>[My understanding is that plotting <img src='http://l.wordpress.com/latex.php?latex=d%5Csigma%2Fdm_T&#038;bg=ffffff&#038;fg=000000&#038;s=0' alt='d\sigma/dm_T' title='d\sigma/dm_T' class='latex' /> instead of <img src='http://l.wordpress.com/latex.php?latex=d%5Csigma%2Fdp_T&#038;bg=ffffff&#038;fg=000000&#038;s=0' alt='d\sigma/dp_T' title='d\sigma/dp_T' class='latex' /> helps in this case, but it's not obvious to me how this works.]</p>
<p>2. A very naive question: when you say that you look at the E/p distribution, which E and p are you using? Is this the electron E/p? Does this mean we&#8217;re comparing the energy deposited in the calorimeter compared to the momentum extracted from tracking?</p>
<p>When you explained the tail on the E/p distribution, you said this was because of bremsstrahlung of high-energy electrons. So the sot photons count towards the energy in the calorimeter, but not the curving in the tracking used to fit the momentum. Since the tracking system is closer to the beam pipe than the calorimeter, are you saying that the bremsstrahlung occurs nearly instantaneously so that the electron radiates away photons before drifting through the tracking chamber?</p>
<p>Also, how do you know what the momentum <img src='http://l.wordpress.com/latex.php?latex=p&#038;bg=ffffff&#038;fg=000000&#038;s=0' alt='p' title='p' class='latex' /> is in the expression <img src='http://l.wordpress.com/latex.php?latex=E%2Fp&#038;bg=ffffff&#038;fg=000000&#038;s=0' alt='E/p' title='E/p' class='latex' />? Presumably energy of an electron can be measured in the EM calorimeter, but we can&#8217;t determine <img src='http://l.wordpress.com/latex.php?latex=p&#038;bg=ffffff&#038;fg=000000&#038;s=0' alt='p' title='p' class='latex' /> since we don&#8217;t know the longitudinal component of momentum? (Or do we just use the information from the pseudorapidity of the deposited energy in the calorimeter?)</p>
<p>3. In your last plot of the distribution with respect to transverse mass, can you explain why the shape takes this form? My understanding is that there&#8217;s a Jacobian peak that is smoothed out by various effects. Why is it that the `smoothing&#8217; out causes the lower values of <img src='http://l.wordpress.com/latex.php?latex=m_T&#038;bg=ffffff&#038;fg=000000&#038;s=0' alt='m_T' title='m_T' class='latex' /> to be enhanced relative to the Jacobian peak?</p>
<p>Thanks very much!<br />
Flip</p>
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