Comments on: Nobody shakes W’s hand http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2008/11/22/nobody-shakes-ws-hand/ private thoughts of a physicist and chessplayer Thu, 24 Dec 2009 08:50:26 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: changcho http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2008/11/22/nobody-shakes-ws-hand/#comment-102291 changcho Tue, 25 Nov 2008 22:16:19 +0000 http://dorigo.wordpress.com/?p=1765#comment-102291 Hi Tommaso, sorry about goffredo spewing his fury at you regarding this w character. Yes, we need a new qualifier for bush; I don't think he's quite in the same level as stalin or hitler, I think his body-count is about an order of magnitude smaller. It is is also true that he is not a tyrant, as he (unfortunately, and to the embarrassment of the US - it will be remembered as a very ominous chapter in future US history books) had/has the support of a significant fraction of the US population. How about calling him a little-war-criminal? "Little" (piccolo??) is a very appropriate word for w (no, not the boson). Hi Tommaso, sorry about goffredo spewing his fury at you regarding this w character. Yes, we need a new qualifier for bush; I don’t think he’s quite in the same level as stalin or hitler, I think his body-count is about an order of magnitude smaller. It is is also true that he is not a tyrant, as he (unfortunately, and to the embarrassment of the US – it will be remembered as a very ominous chapter in future US history books) had/has the support of a significant fraction of the US population.

How about calling him a little-war-criminal? “Little” (piccolo??) is a very appropriate word for w (no, not the boson).

]]> By: chris http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2008/11/22/nobody-shakes-ws-hand/#comment-102281 chris Tue, 25 Nov 2008 16:03:27 +0000 http://dorigo.wordpress.com/?p=1765#comment-102281 gosh, and i thought for a moment you were talking about the W boson :-) gosh, and i thought for a moment you were talking about the W boson :-)

]]> By: Andrea Giammanco http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2008/11/22/nobody-shakes-ws-hand/#comment-102277 Andrea Giammanco Tue, 25 Nov 2008 14:01:29 +0000 http://dorigo.wordpress.com/?p=1765#comment-102277 > he is definitely on the same league with Hitler, Stalin, and a few other sorry individuals Ahah this thread is a fantastic demonstration of Godwin's law: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law "there is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically "lost" whatever debate was in progress." > he is definitely on the same league with Hitler, Stalin, and a few other sorry individuals

Ahah this thread is a fantastic demonstration of Godwin’s law:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin’s_Law

“there is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically “lost” whatever debate was in progress.”

]]> By: goffredo http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2008/11/22/nobody-shakes-ws-hand/#comment-102270 goffredo Tue, 25 Nov 2008 07:51:56 +0000 http://dorigo.wordpress.com/?p=1765#comment-102270 Tommaso. You incredibly wrote "he [Bush] is definitely on the same league with Hitler, Stalin, and a few other sorry individuals- at least if we do a body count-..." That it it! Conclusion: your are completely out of your mind and sentences like this make your positions complete trash, just to be nice! A human can be quite rational when it comes to muons, fakes, signals and backgrounds but a complete jerk and potentially dangerous when to comes to other things. Tommaso Dorigo exemplifies the scientist and physicsist that should not be listened to out side the very strict confines of their technical expertise. WARNING and he is painfully typical. By throwing his/their credibility out the window in such STUPID he/they digs/dig his/their own tomb(s) and condemn/condemn himself/theirselves to uselessness. There is no rational reason and no evidence what so ever to believe that Tommaso Dorigo is wise, unbiased, knowledable, experienced. Tommaso is foolish, biased, ignorant and completely out of touch with reality. I step back and let Tommaso defecate as much as he wishes on political and sociological issues. I do hope that someone out there in blog space will not let him get away with it. I've had it. I will continue to read his HEP posts though. Those are good. Tommaso.
You incredibly wrote “he [Bush] is definitely on the same league with Hitler, Stalin, and a few other sorry individuals- at least if we do a body count-…”

That it it! Conclusion: your are completely out of your mind and sentences like this make your positions complete trash, just to be nice! A human can be quite rational when it comes to muons, fakes, signals and backgrounds but a complete jerk and potentially dangerous when to comes to other things. Tommaso Dorigo exemplifies the scientist and physicsist that should not be listened to out side the very strict confines of their technical expertise. WARNING and he is painfully typical. By throwing his/their credibility out the window in such STUPID he/they digs/dig his/their own tomb(s) and condemn/condemn himself/theirselves to uselessness. There is no rational reason and no evidence what so ever to believe that Tommaso Dorigo is wise, unbiased, knowledable, experienced.
Tommaso is foolish, biased, ignorant and completely out of touch with reality.

I step back and let Tommaso defecate as much as he wishes on political and sociological issues. I do hope that someone out there in blog space will not let him get away with it. I’ve had it. I will continue to read his HEP posts though. Those are good.

]]> By: dorigo http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2008/11/22/nobody-shakes-ws-hand/#comment-102269 dorigo Tue, 25 Nov 2008 06:51:58 +0000 http://dorigo.wordpress.com/?p=1765#comment-102269 Changcho, they have to invent a new word for people like him. While he is definitely on the same league with Hitler, Stalin, and a few other sorry individuals- at least if we do a body count- we cannot compare him to them, because he -like it or not- interpreted the feeling of at least a part of a big country. He is not a tyrant, so while he, along with his cabinet, is directly responsible (he could have decided otherwise), he shares some of the burden with others. It is this which really bothers the american people, in a sense: those who elected, his congressmen, are also responsible. Cheers, T. Changcho, they have to invent a new word for people like him. While he is definitely on the same league with Hitler, Stalin, and a few other sorry individuals- at least if we do a body count- we cannot compare him to them, because he -like it or not- interpreted the feeling of at least a part of a big country. He is not a tyrant, so while he, along with his cabinet, is directly responsible (he could have decided otherwise), he shares some of the burden with others. It is this which really bothers the american people, in a sense: those who elected, his congressmen, are also responsible.

Cheers,
T.

]]> By: TINETTI E CATTANEO: LA SCIENZA RAPPRESENTATA DALLE DONNE http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2008/11/22/nobody-shakes-ws-hand/#comment-102268 TINETTI E CATTANEO: LA SCIENZA RAPPRESENTATA DALLE DONNE Tue, 25 Nov 2008 04:00:48 +0000 http://dorigo.wordpress.com/?p=1765#comment-102268 [...] Bush dunque se ne va e lascia il posto a Obama, che stimolerà la ricerca sulle cellule staminali anche embrionali, eliminando il bando sul finanziamento federale che il suo predecessore aveva approvato nel 2001! Quel Bush che questo fine settimana è stato vittima (o complice?) di un balletto assolutamente patetico in cui tutti fanno finta di ignorarlo, e di non stringergli la mano. Scusate l’off-topic, ma ne parla anche Dorigo sul suo Blog [...] [...] Bush dunque se ne va e lascia il posto a Obama, che stimolerà la ricerca sulle cellule staminali anche embrionali, eliminando il bando sul finanziamento federale che il suo predecessore aveva approvato nel 2001! Quel Bush che questo fine settimana è stato vittima (o complice?) di un balletto assolutamente patetico in cui tutti fanno finta di ignorarlo, e di non stringergli la mano. Scusate l’off-topic, ma ne parla anche Dorigo sul suo Blog [...]

]]> By: changcho http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2008/11/22/nobody-shakes-ws-hand/#comment-102265 changcho Mon, 24 Nov 2008 23:40:01 +0000 http://dorigo.wordpress.com/?p=1765#comment-102265 "Bush is responsible directly for the death of hundreds of thousands of civilians, but he is not a “war criminal”. Ok Tommaso, if he is not a war criminal, then in your opinion what would be an appropriate qualifier ? “Bush is responsible directly for the death of hundreds of thousands of civilians, but he is not a “war criminal”.

Ok Tommaso, if he is not a war criminal, then in your opinion what would be an appropriate qualifier ?

]]> By: island http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2008/11/22/nobody-shakes-ws-hand/#comment-102257 island Mon, 24 Nov 2008 10:55:45 +0000 http://dorigo.wordpress.com/?p=1765#comment-102257 And I just have to blurt out... Lumo, you willfully ignore the directly observed cosmological reality all day long every day, so don't even pretend to be a strict empiricist like Dorigo is, because you live in fantasyLand for most of your life as far as I'm concerned, whereas Tommaso's uncanny intuition comes from deep experience in the trenches. So there!... ;) And I just have to blurt out… Lumo, you willfully ignore the directly observed cosmological reality all day long every day, so don’t even pretend to be a strict empiricist like Dorigo is, because you live in fantasyLand for most of your life as far as I’m concerned, whereas Tommaso’s uncanny intuition comes from deep experience in the trenches.

So there!… ;)

]]> By: Andrea Giammanco http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2008/11/22/nobody-shakes-ws-hand/#comment-102256 Andrea Giammanco Mon, 24 Nov 2008 09:06:25 +0000 http://dorigo.wordpress.com/?p=1765#comment-102256 By the way, as a matter of fact any head of state is always very respectful of any other official representative, in official occasion, even if he is a representative of the Republic of San Marino, with no correlation at all with the power of the country nor of the individual. How can you believe that somebody can be blatantly disrespectful of the head of state of the USA, even if he is going to be replaced in a couple of months? Lacking respect to another head of state is not going to make you a friend with his successor: most probably, his successor would feel offended because it is a lack of respect towards his country, in the first place. I think that maybe only in the days before a declaration of war you can see something like that (and maybe not even in that occasion). And as far as I know the european countries are not going to invade America... By the way, as a matter of fact any head of state is always very respectful of any other official representative, in official occasion, even if he is a representative of the Republic of San Marino, with no correlation at all with the power of the country nor of the individual.
How can you believe that somebody can be blatantly disrespectful of the head of state of the USA, even if he is going to be replaced in a couple of months? Lacking respect to another head of state is not going to make you a friend with his successor: most probably, his successor would feel offended because it is a lack of respect towards his country, in the first place. I think that maybe only in the days before a declaration of war you can see something like that (and maybe not even in that occasion). And as far as I know the european countries are not going to invade America…

]]> By: Ptrslv72 http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2008/11/22/nobody-shakes-ws-hand/#comment-102254 Ptrslv72 Mon, 24 Nov 2008 00:13:10 +0000 http://dorigo.wordpress.com/?p=1765#comment-102254 I agree with the posters who pointed out that these events are too strictly choreographed for a snub as blatant as the one implied by CNN to occur. And involving ALL the participants??? It's just a matter of common sense... Come on, only on a rainy weekend could so many people waste so much time and bytes on such a non-event. Cheers, Ptrslv72 I agree with the posters who pointed out that these events are too strictly choreographed for a snub as blatant as the one implied by CNN to occur. And involving ALL the participants??? It’s just a matter of common sense… Come on, only on a rainy weekend could so many people waste so much time and bytes on such a non-event. Cheers,
Ptrslv72

]]> By: island http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2008/11/22/nobody-shakes-ws-hand/#comment-102249 island Sun, 23 Nov 2008 20:58:27 +0000 http://dorigo.wordpress.com/?p=1765#comment-102249 <i>We all know that in all matters of mere opinion that man is insane... just as insane as we are... we know exactly where to put our finger upon his insanity: It is where his opinion differs from ours.... All Democrats are insane, but not one of them knows it. None but the Republicans. All the Republicans are insane, but only the Democrats can perceive it. The rule is perfect: In all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane.</i> -Mark Twain We all know that in all matters of mere opinion that man is insane… just as insane as we are… we know exactly where to put our finger upon his insanity:

It is where his opinion differs from ours….

All Democrats are insane, but not one of them knows it. None but the Republicans.

All the Republicans are insane, but only the Democrats can perceive it.

The rule is perfect: In all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane.
-Mark Twain

]]> By: Andrea Giammanco http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2008/11/22/nobody-shakes-ws-hand/#comment-102246 Andrea Giammanco Sun, 23 Nov 2008 18:27:00 +0000 http://dorigo.wordpress.com/?p=1765#comment-102246 Even before reading the comments, my first thought was that it is almost certainly a matter of protocol. It is way too explicit to be possible. Probably some of them had already shaken their hands before, and others were meeting for the first time that day. If Bush was the host (indeed, the meeting was in Washington) it is realistic that he had already shaken hands with all of the others just as soon as they arrived. Even before reading the comments, my first thought was that it is almost certainly a matter of protocol.
It is way too explicit to be possible. Probably some of them had already shaken their hands before, and others were meeting for the first time that day.
If Bush was the host (indeed, the meeting was in Washington) it is realistic that he had already shaken hands with all of the others just as soon as they arrived.

]]> By: Alejandro Rivero http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2008/11/22/nobody-shakes-ws-hand/#comment-102244 Alejandro Rivero Sun, 23 Nov 2008 18:04:52 +0000 http://dorigo.wordpress.com/?p=1765#comment-102244 Lubos, I agree that my interpretation is risky. But note that it agrees partly with the official version "there was not handshake because a separate handshake had happened the same morning". Also I note that Zapatero is very fast putting the hands in the back after a handshake with the guy before Bush, and this move is way compatible with the hypothesis of previous planning. I think we agree that it is likely that the "no handshake" scene was planned, do we? If so, we can suppose that the White House protocol planners had knowledge of it and had agreed to it. The only question is the motivation. I have provided a particular one (the Spanish conflict, dating from Azores). But I could be perfectly happy with other explanations; for instance perhaps they preferred the individual pictures (as seen in the video you provided) of handshaking because they happened "at level", while in the joint picture they were "from down to up", with Bush at a lower level than the leaders he should be greeting. Lubos, I agree that my interpretation is risky. But note that it agrees partly with the official version “there was not handshake because a separate handshake had happened the same morning”. Also I note that Zapatero is very fast putting the hands in the back after a handshake with the guy before Bush, and this move is way compatible with the hypothesis of previous planning. I think we agree that it is likely that the “no handshake” scene was planned, do we? If so, we can suppose that the White House protocol planners had knowledge of it and had agreed to it. The only question is the motivation. I have provided a particular one (the Spanish conflict, dating from Azores). But I could be perfectly happy with other explanations; for instance perhaps they preferred the individual pictures (as seen in the video you provided) of handshaking because they happened “at level”, while in the joint picture they were “from down to up”, with Bush at a lower level than the leaders he should be greeting.

]]> By: Luboš Motl http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2008/11/22/nobody-shakes-ws-hand/#comment-102237 Luboš Motl Sun, 23 Nov 2008 07:32:31 +0000 http://dorigo.wordpress.com/?p=1765#comment-102237 Oh, I forgot the fifth group, the "progressives" who believe what they see and who are extremely happy about it because their hatred against Bush (and/or the US) overshadows all of their other moral values and standards. Some of them may leave this blog, which is something that would make Tommaso's life fresher and cleaner and I wish him it will materialize. Oh, I forgot the fifth group, the “progressives” who believe what they see and who are extremely happy about it because their hatred against Bush (and/or the US) overshadows all of their other moral values and standards. Some of them may leave this blog, which is something that would make Tommaso’s life fresher and cleaner and I wish him it will materialize.

]]> By: Luboš Motl http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2008/11/22/nobody-shakes-ws-hand/#comment-102236 Luboš Motl Sun, 23 Nov 2008 07:30:04 +0000 http://dorigo.wordpress.com/?p=1765#comment-102236 Alejandro, these are pretty creative theories. And given the importance you assign to your own prime minister, whom I almost haven't noticed in the video, we could also perhaps argue that your explanations are based on paranoia. Bush could still shake hands of Ki-moon, Barroso, Merkel, Brown, and others, and avoid Zapatero. Also, I don't understand why you think that the journalists could confuse a handshake among Zapatero and Bush themselves and one inside a larger group. And even if they confused these two, why you think that it would be such a catastrophe to use the other one. In scientific sense, these hypotheses are too contrived. I believe that the politicians are only constrained by a few rules - they wouldn't memorize too many, anyway - and everything else is up to their inner feelings and spontaneity. That's why your (and other) explanations look unlikely and contrived to me. Note that the interpretation of this scene is uncorrelated with political orientation. There are conservatives like me who are appalled by the generic leaders' hypocrisy, which they suspected, anyway. There are socialists like TD who know that the behavior is bad and feel bad conscience about similar politicians' behavior. Then there are conservatives like Michelle Malkin or #16 nonhocapito who like to preserve the picture that these people generally love Bush, which I don't quite believe. And then there are liberals such as some at Huffington Post who think it is unacceptable to believe that Bush was snubbed because it would be insulting not only to Bush but even their country and themselves. Each of the groups has many subgroups with detailed explanations. Only my and Tommaso's group is based on "What you see is what you get". Alejandro, these are pretty creative theories. And given the importance you assign to your own prime minister, whom I almost haven’t noticed in the video, we could also perhaps argue that your explanations are based on paranoia.

Bush could still shake hands of Ki-moon, Barroso, Merkel, Brown, and others, and avoid Zapatero. Also, I don’t understand why you think that the journalists could confuse a handshake among Zapatero and Bush themselves and one inside a larger group. And even if they confused these two, why you think that it would be such a catastrophe to use the other one.

In scientific sense, these hypotheses are too contrived. I believe that the politicians are only constrained by a few rules – they wouldn’t memorize too many, anyway – and everything else is up to their inner feelings and spontaneity. That’s why your (and other) explanations look unlikely and contrived to me.

Note that the interpretation of this scene is uncorrelated with political orientation. There are conservatives like me who are appalled by the generic leaders’ hypocrisy, which they suspected, anyway. There are socialists like TD who know that the behavior is bad and feel bad conscience about similar politicians’ behavior. Then there are conservatives like Michelle Malkin or #16 nonhocapito who like to preserve the picture that these people generally love Bush, which I don’t quite believe. And then there are liberals such as some at Huffington Post who think it is unacceptable to believe that Bush was snubbed because it would be insulting not only to Bush but even their country and themselves.

Each of the groups has many subgroups with detailed explanations. Only my and Tommaso’s group is based on “What you see is what you get”.

]]> By: Yatima http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2008/11/22/nobody-shakes-ws-hand/#comment-102227 Yatima Sat, 22 Nov 2008 23:09:29 +0000 http://dorigo.wordpress.com/?p=1765#comment-102227 Always shake hands with the capo of the nastiest corporatist outfit on the planet which can bomb into a bloody pulp or wreck your economy in the blink of an eye if it thinks it's good for ideological shoe-shining or shifting money and power to special interest groups. Come on guys, you have all learned this in the schoolyard, right? Or were you tough enough to hold on to your lunch money? Always shake hands with the capo of the nastiest corporatist outfit on the planet which can bomb into a bloody pulp or wreck your economy in the blink of an eye if it thinks it’s good for ideological shoe-shining or shifting money and power to special interest groups.

Come on guys, you have all learned this in the schoolyard, right? Or were you tough enough to hold on to your lunch money?

]]> By: goffredo http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2008/11/22/nobody-shakes-ws-hand/#comment-102226 goffredo Sat, 22 Nov 2008 22:40:35 +0000 http://dorigo.wordpress.com/?p=1765#comment-102226 Hi Tommaso. Good. Bye Tommaso. No reaction from that idiot futiledemocracy? Hey are you out there? Futilebrains should be his name. Hi Tommaso. Good. Bye Tommaso.

No reaction from that idiot futiledemocracy? Hey are you out there?
Futilebrains should be his name.

]]> By: dorigo http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2008/11/22/nobody-shakes-ws-hand/#comment-102225 dorigo Sat, 22 Nov 2008 22:33:16 +0000 http://dorigo.wordpress.com/?p=1765#comment-102225 Jeff, I thought it over, and I have to aknowledge you are right. Bush is not a war criminal, and indeed calling him that way derates the allegation, which is something I do not want to do. Bush is responsible directly for the death of hundreds of thousands of civilians, but he is not a "war criminal". Cheers, T. Jeff, I thought it over, and I have to aknowledge you are right. Bush is not a war criminal, and indeed calling him that way derates the allegation, which is something I do not want to do. Bush is responsible directly for the death of hundreds of thousands of civilians, but he is not a “war criminal”.

Cheers,
T.

]]> By: Alejandro Rivero http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2008/11/22/nobody-shakes-ws-hand/#comment-102224 Alejandro Rivero Sat, 22 Nov 2008 22:00:14 +0000 http://dorigo.wordpress.com/?p=1765#comment-102224 Lubos got scent of another video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6MEr8-S8Oc The explanation is in the line of #20 above but not restricted to Spain: Bush has done the "handshake pictures" before and they are not providing a second photo-op in the same morning. Still, I note that Zapatero stresses the point, so I still believe that the situation of Spain is special. Note also that Spain was not invited to the G20, there were coming as EU representatives, and in fact France, which was invited separately from the EU, declined to use its flag during the summit. Lubos got scent of another video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6MEr8-S8Oc
The explanation is in the line of #20 above but not restricted to Spain: Bush has done the “handshake pictures” before and they are not providing a second photo-op in the same morning. Still, I note that Zapatero stresses the point, so I still believe that the situation of Spain is special. Note also that Spain was not invited to the G20, there were coming as EU representatives, and in fact France, which was invited separately from the EU, declined to use its flag during the summit.

]]> By: Gordon http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2008/11/22/nobody-shakes-ws-hand/#comment-102223 Gordon Sat, 22 Nov 2008 21:58:15 +0000 http://dorigo.wordpress.com/?p=1765#comment-102223 The explanations are getting more labyrinthine by the moment. He was snubbed. I don't like him, but that behavior is not civilised. Even if there were a previous photo-op handshake, they should have made the effort again--after all, they did shake with each other. The US was snubbed. The explanations are getting more labyrinthine by the moment.
He was snubbed. I don’t like him, but that behavior is not civilised.
Even if there were a previous photo-op handshake, they should have made the effort again–after all, they did shake with each other. The US was snubbed.

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