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Stop the bombs! January 2, 2009

Posted by dorigo in history, news, politics.
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It is quite sad for me to see a country built on the ashes of millions of jews, victims of the nazis during WWII, show for the umpteenth time their leaders and soldiers are not altogether different from their grandparents’ executioners. We are all human, and that means we are all beasts. Israel feels threatened by the constant threat of palestinian attacks -not a big threat, to be honest: the wiping out of Israel off the middle east map is an oversold story which has lost all its meaning since the seventies- and decides unilaterally to unleash an attack on a strip of land so thin that planes would have trouble landing along its shorter side.

And hundreds die. More than 400 so far, plus 2000 wounded, most of them civilians of course. The acclaimed killing by israeli bombs of a Hamas leader, Nizar Rayyan, cost the life of his wives and 10 of his 12 children. Rayyan was no doubt an extremist and a fomenter of suicide attacks, but I ask your forgiveness if I can see no difference between the bombs that killed him and his family and those he tried to explode in israeli soil. Terrorist is Hamas, and terrorist is Tzipi Livni and her government.

What is striking to me is how plain it is to see, from a distance, that these bombs are only a political tool for power, and that they will but cause more suffering to the same israeli people that dropped them. Does Livni think that killing a few Hamas leaders and a few thousand civilians will cool down the minds of the arabs ? No, she does not. But she feels more powerful today.

Comments

1. Ptrslv72 - January 2, 2009

to be precise, she and defense minister Ehud Barak feel higher up in the polls for the elections of February 10th…

2. Codger - January 2, 2009

I assessing these kinds of disputes, I find it very useful to imagine what would happen if the positions of the parties were reversed. So imagine that the Arabs had the military power of the Israelis, and that the latter were as weak as the Palestinians. What would be the result?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treblinka

While I’m at it: I wonder why so many Europeans have this rabid hatred of Israel. I guess it is because the Israelis have made the mistake of associating themselves with the US. Certainly it is not because Europeans give a rat’s ass for the Arabs.

3. Anonymous - January 2, 2009

In large part I certainly agree with you, but there probably does have to be some sort of response to rockets randomly tossed into Israel every day or so, that kill random people. Clearly the response should be more symmetrical, though. I wouldn’t say the threat of Israel being wiped out is so ridiculous if Iran, or Syria, were to field nuclear weapons.

4. Charles - January 2, 2009

Through the long war of virtual extermination of the Native Americans by 17th, 18th and 19th C. white settlers, there were certainly some atrocities committed by the natives against the white invaders. Nevertheless, I think few would argue today that the whites were basically in the right. The same situation applies in Israel/Palestine.

5. Israeli - January 2, 2009

You are so wrong, so biased, and so much against what is good and human, that you cannot even imagine. The compassion you feel for the Palestinians in Gaza can be compared to the compassion expressed by some `moral people’ to the German Nazis during the fall of the 2-nd war, people who preferred to see the dead camps continue working, because they couldn’t tolerate seeing some beautiful children from Dresden suffering. I’ll try to explain this to you later (must go to work now).

6. dorigo - January 2, 2009

Hi all,

Codger, switching military power without switching all the rest makes no sense. We have a nuclear power with one of the strongest armies of the world, and a strip of desperados with a hatred built on sixty years of emargination. Saying that Israel is playing fair because they could wipe Gaza off the board in a minute is nonsensical.
I have no hatred for Israel at all – actually, I love its culture and its historic heritage. Many jews are my best friends. This does not prevent me from seeing what is plain to see.

Anonymous, I question whether there should be any response at all. A state cannot respond to terrorism with terrorism. They should answer terrorism in a way that pays much less in terms of electoral votes: dialogue, concessions, money spent for humanitarian projects. Had Israel spent 10% of its military budget for humanitarian aid in arab countries in the last twenty years, the arab fanatics would be a hundredth of what they are now.

Charles, I do not understand your comment. Are you saying that the extermination of the natives was a righteous thing to do ?

Israeli, I feel compassion for the children who are not guilty of having been born in Gaza, and die under bombs sent for political reasons. Do you not ? If you don’t, please walk away. Otherwise, we can have a discussion and maybe you can try to convince me that these bombs are achieving a meaningful goal.

Cheers all,
T.

7. Israeli - January 2, 2009

O.K. came back from work.

Israel have evacuated the Gasa strip three years ago. Israel has evacuated nearly ten thousand civilians how build their homes on empty territory, not on other lands. Since then, the Palestinians have been launching thousands of rockets, not randomly as someone has been trying to claim here, but directly at civilian towns and villages in Israel. During this time a radical and most brutal Islamic regime has been developing there (however, supported by the majority of the population in Gasa), a regime that has been promoting a radical Islamic law, killing more Palestinian then any other factor in the region has ever killed, torchering, burning, cutting organs, and so on.

All this time we did not hear a word from blogers like Tomasso. That the children of Israel are raised in fear and daily danger is probably absolutely meaningless. That a nation of six milions people (survivors of European gas chambers and crematoriums) is under a constant treat of being destroyed by its enemies (perhaps even more brutal and crule than the Europeans) is absolutely irrelevant. That Israel without the `occupied territories’ is a 20 Km width country (!) surrounded by Hundreds of Millions of Hostile Arabs whose lands sperads from the Atlantic to the Indean ocean, is not an interesting issue.

What is important here is that Israel has dared to protect its civilians! How dare they, the Jewish bastards!

Well, Tomasso, after our parents has been gathered in Rome (like thousands of other places in Europe) and sent to their death at Auschwitz, we, the survivor’s descendants, have decided to stay alive without taking permission from hypocrites. I can assure you that the people of Israel are THE peace makers of all nations. For this reason they have been suffer persecutions like no other nation ever did. When we grouped our pieces from the ashes of Auschwitz and settled in our ancient homeland we offered peace to anyone who was willing to hear. Since then the answer has been only death and fire.

Its time for Hamas in Gasa to take responsibility for its decisions to murder as much Israelis as they can, to make plans (together with other nations in the regions) to eliminate the people of Israel. And, on the same footing, it is time for European to grow up and destroy, once and for all, the anticemitism (and its offspring, anti-Israeli) rooted so hard in their hearts.

8. Israeli - January 2, 2009

Please accept my apology for the spelling mistakes. My answer has been written with a lot of anger. How can you be so blind and so arrogant to judge us without even having the slightest idea of what is going on here? to compare us to Nazis?! This is a fundamental misunderstanding of what was the Holocaust all about! This is a distortion of all ethic, moral, and humanism. This is really outrages!

9. dorigo - January 2, 2009

Israeli, I pardon all your spelling mistakes, much less your trying to accuse people who oppose your country foreign politics (hypocrite, blind, arrogant, do not have any idea, outrageous) rather than discussing the issues they bring up.

And the issue is simple. Can you explain what is the rationale of wholesome bombings that kill civilians ? What good does it do to your cause ? How is it morally justifiable, for a country that wants to claim to be better than its enemies ? Mind you, I am not claiming Israel is not better. I am saying this does not show it very well. Nor am I ascribing these bombs to all the people of Israel. Bertrand Russell said it well once: peoples are not bad. Individuals, sometimes, can be.
In this case, it is your prime minister and your generals.

Cheers,
T.

10. Neil B. - January 2, 2009

The issue isn’t just whether Israel’s military action per se is a proper “proportionate response” etc. That is of course debatable and a game point. But there is also the rest of the handling of the Gaza/Palestinian issue such as supplies, economy, unequal use of water supplies etc. Look at this website:
http://www.juancole.com/2009/01/bombing-refugee-camps-in-gaza-instead.html.
You can look this problem up in many places. And Codger, you have no legitimate standing accusing Tommaso of not giving a rat’s ass about Palestinians. How would you know, why wouldn’t someone care about this or that group? Maybe you’re cynical and misanthropic, but not everyone else is. Most people in the world, including me, don’t like the suffering that either party in this tragic struggle go through.

11. Anonymous - January 2, 2009

Hi Tommaso, you state that if Israel had spent 10% of its military budget on humanitarian projects in Arab countries, the fanatics there would be one hundredth of what they are now. Although it would indeed be wonderful to do such a thing, I disagree with your statement. Most (or basically all) of the fanatics fundamentally disagree with Israel’s right to exist, no matter what bits of charity they give. They really do. The situation is pretty incorrigible, and a large part of even very good-natured humanitarian charity there ends up transferred to the hands of fundamentalist madrassas. So it’s not so simple.

And there is a difference between, e.g., the terrorism in Mumbai recently, and launching rockets from Gaza into Israel. The latter is directly ordered by the leadership of Gaza, i.e. Hamas, whereas the former was determined to not be connected (or at least they didn’t find a connection) to the present leadership of Pakistan. State-sponsored terrorism does require at least some sort of state response, just as if somehow Italy were to be attacked by some rabid sect that took over Slovenia (not very likely, but…😉 or if North Korea extended the range of its missiles and launched a few at the U.S. The response should be proportionate, and civilian casualties need to be avoided, but Israel is not required to be Jesus dying for the sins of its neighbors.

dorigo - January 2, 2009

Hi Anon,

fanatics do not grow on trees. They are grown up that way by propaganda. However, if propaganda finds no fertile ground, it is not effective. The arab fundamentalist propaganda has been incredibly effective in the past, and much of the merit is due to the foreign politics of Israel. Now, I know I am a dreamer to some extent – if Israel spent money on a thing like Emergency in arab countries, arab fundamentalists would blow it up. But really, bombs are only killing innocents and are only making matters worse. Who cares about the few leaders who lose their life ? There will be a queue to replace them tomorrow. Israel is answering these coordinated attacks with the same token, only on a larger scale. If they claim they are surrounded by terrorists, and they act the very same way, they start looking as if they deserve what they get. That is not the case, because unfortunately it is people who suffer, and not leaders. But since the jewish culture is founded on the worship of reason and knowledge, one would expect some more vision than a stupid, merciless, cruel retaliation.

Cheers,
T.

12. Anonymous - January 2, 2009

Indeed the strikes should get the people who are ordering the missile strikes and missile construction, and avoid others. It’s not easy, suggestions welcome on how to do that. I agree that the present operation has become disproportionate and counterproductive, and needs to end now. Both Islamic and Jewish culture were historically founded on love of reason and knowledge, and share a common ancestry. Maybe one day there will be peace, we can all hope.

dorigo - January 3, 2009

Hi Anon (many chickens around when we discuss politics, huh ? -I do not want to sound offensive btw, but to me somebody who does not put his or her face behind what he thinks and writes is a chicken, and this thread has collected a few).

Now, I agree. Once strikes are in the menu, it is hard to get them served without collateral damage. And we of course agree on the rest. But all men and women who believe this war could cease if the crisis were handled differently have a moral obligation to speak up, in my opinion. It is a drop of water in the sea, but millions of drops make floods.

Cheers,
T.

13. Israeli - January 2, 2009

“Israeli, I pardon all your spelling mistakes,”

Thank you.

“… much less your trying to accuse people who oppose your country foreign politics (hypocrite, blind, arrogant, do not have any idea, outrageous) rather than discussing the issues they bring up.”

My criticism of you has nothing to do with politics. It is about distorting the truth, and supporting murderers propaganda.

“And the issue is simple. Can you explain what is the rationale of wholesome bombings that kill civilians?”

This is a manipulating and deceptive question! The Israeli army is doing everything it can *not* to hit civilians, beyond anything done by any army in the world, in any place around the globe. It is Hamas who target civilians as a policy (which hasn’t been condemned by you so far despite the fact that they do it for years causing hundreds of casualties). So much ethic is the IDF, that they make a phone-calls to the terrorists families before bombing, asking everyone to evacuate in order to save their lives. Why bombing? because the houses being bombed serve as reservoirs of rockets, or bases of terrorists attacks. Palestinian civilians are being killed because Hamas is using them as human protection.

“What good does it do to your cause?”

After formulating a wrong axiom, you can make any point you like. We do not bomb civilians. Once again, this is the what the Hamas is being doing for years. Anyway, you don’t want to see your beloved kids being killed, don’t you? Nither do we! And therefore we must react. This is a moral duty of the government to its citizens.

“How is it morally justifiable, for a country that wants to claim to be better than its enemies ? ”

(Once again, a question based on a wrong statement. We do not bomb civilians.) The civilians are supporting the terrorist authority there. Their suffering is a direct consequence of their supporting. If you will support the Mafia in Cicely you (and your family) may pay a high price for it. In this case you cannot run away from responsibility and the inevitable consequences.

“Mind you, I am not claiming Israel is not better. I am saying this does not show it very well. Nor am I ascribing these bombs to all the people of Israel.”

The action in Gasa should be morally supported by any peacemaker in the world. It is an action against evil, violence, aggression, cultural regression and more…

“Bertrand Russell said it well once: peoples are not bad. Individuals, sometimes, can be.”

Well… he has never been my cup of tea. And in this saying he hasn’t been very much logic (individuals are people). There are many bad people in the Palestinian side, very much like there were many bad people in the Nazi side. We, also, have our bad people (thanks God, much less) . But certainly most of which are not those you accuse of being bad.

“In this case, it is your prime minister and your generals.”

This is a pure antisemitic accusation. They do their best to protect their people from being butchered. One Holocaust was enough for us. I am sure you would have demand your government to do the same had your children would have been the target. Be honest!

dorigo - January 2, 2009

Now about the heart of the matter. You say “The Israeli army is doing everything it can *not* to hit civilians, beyond anything done by any army in the world”.
This is false, of course, since the best one can do not to hit civilians is not to bomb buildings. For instance, the italian army is not bombing any civilians that I know of, these days. So you omit to say that they decided to act against Hamas, knowing they would inflict suffering and casualties. But I can understand the logic behind this “eye for eye” action. You in fact say it plainly, despite blaming my twisted logic:
“Anyway, you don’t want to see your beloved kids being killed, don’t you? Nither do we! And therefore we must react. This is a moral duty of the government to its citizens.”

So that is what it boils down to, is it not ? It is about vengeance. It has been like that for sixty years now. A moral duty to react. This, my anonymous fellow, is the heart of the matter, and not whether your army is making phone calls to houses being bombed or whether your bombs know a fundamentalist from a saint.

Now, vengeance is in the holy scriptures, so it must be right, right ? I assert that revenge is wrong; that it does not belong to a civilized country; and that it is going to cause more suffering to the very same people of Israel, those who support the bombings and those who do not (and there are many who do not, let us not forget).

Good luck with your reactionary thinking
T.

14. Israeli - January 2, 2009

I am afraid the spelling in my first reaction here made it almost impossible to follow a point, which I think is very important. For those who could not follow I add here a corrected version of my claims against Tommaso accusations, hopefully this time with minimum mistakes… Once again, I apologize for the inconveniences.

—————————————————-
Israel has evacuated the Gaza strip three years ago. Israel has evacuated nearly ten thousand civilians who built their homes on empty territory, not on others land. Since then, the Palestinians have been launching thousands of rockets, not randomly as someone has been trying to claim here, but directly at civilian towns and villages in Israel. During this time a radical and most brutal Islamic regime has been developing there (however, supported by the majority of the population in Gaza), a regime that has been promoting a radical Islamic law, killing more Palestinian then any other factor in the region has ever killed, torturing, burning, cutting organs, and so on.

All this time we did not hear a word from blogers like you, Tommaso. That the children of Israel are raised in fear and daily danger is probably absolutely meaningless… That a nation of six millions people (survivors of European gas chambers and crematoriums) is under a constant treat of being destroyed by its enemies (perhaps even more brutal and cruel than the Europeans) is absolutely irrelevant… That Israel without the `occupied territories’ is a 20 Km width country (!) surrounded by Hundreds of Millions of Hostile Arabs whose lands spreads from the Atlantic to the Indian ocean, is not an interesting matter…

What is important here is that Israel has dared to protect its civilians! How dare they, the Jewish bastards!

Well, Tommaso, after our parents has been gathered in Rome (like thousands of other places in Europe) and sent to their death at Auschwitz, we, the survivor’s descendants, have decided to stay alive without taking permission from hypocrites. I can assure you that the people of Israel are THE peacemakers of all nations. For this reason they have been suffer persecutions like no other nation ever did. When we grouped our pieces from the ashes of Auschwitz and settled in our ancient homeland we offered peace to anyone who was willing to hear. Since then, the answer has been only death and fire.

Its time for Hamas in Gaza to take responsibility for its decisions to murder as much Israelis as they can, to make plans (together with other nations in the regions) to eliminate the people of Israel. And, on the same footing, it is time for European to grow up and get rid of the antisemitism (and its offspring, anti-Israeli) so rooted in their hearts.

dorigo - January 2, 2009

Israeli, let me reply to just one statement you make in the typos-amended comment above, because it is very, very bad practice on your side. You say “All this time we did not hear a word from blogers like you, Tommaso.” and I pardon the single “g” in bloggers. This statement is annoying because while perfectly true, it is meaningless, deceptive, and arrogant.

A blog is not a magazine which has a duty to report facts of relevance. A blog is, as you are certainly well aware, a site run by a single individual who freely chooses to discuss topics of his or her liking, when he likes to, without any time constraint, at his or her leisure. There are full months when I do not post about politics, others when I insist on a topic, despite the fact that this is a particle physics blog. Are you annoyed because I do not post my horror at every other bombing of Jerusalem ? Or should I post about the daily killings in Iraq instead, frowning at the US who caused this decade-long massacre ? This is nonsense, of course. I run a particle physics blog, and whenever I feel like writing about anything different from HEP I simply do, and no anonymous stalker can have a word on the topics I choose and the hundreds I omit without looking silly -to use an euphemism.

Cheers,
T.

15. Ptrslv72 - January 3, 2009

There you go again. This trick of throwing around accusations of antisemitism and bringing up the holocaust has been used so often to silence any criticism of israeli policies that by now all it can raise (in me, at least) is a yawn. Pray, how would Tommaso’s statement be antisemitic? I am convinced that this sort of debate would greatly benefit if all parties managed to leave the nazis out of it (unfortunately, T. was the first offender on this count😉 and focused on the rights and wrongs of today’s situation.

16. Anonymous - January 3, 2009

Yes, I’m certainly a chicken (or maybe a Chechen? That’s how I wrote it before correcting it😉 I personally think anonymity can be useful for all, in that I am a priori disassociating myself from any opinions of my career, workplace, or nationality. But, each to his/her own. (Of course you’re welcome to not accept anonymous comments to this blog if you want everyone to be associated with his/her identity!) Anyway, happy New Year, may the world improve🙂

17. Daniel de França MTd2 - January 3, 2009

It’s funny that the Isreali people use the same arguments against the Palestines as the USA used agains the Iraqi in 2003. Copy – and – paste. And we know how much “truthness” we saw in the end from the USA governament.

18. Doug - January 3, 2009

Dorigo,

Lets launch a few hundred rockets at Venice and then have a little tete-a-tete meeting to discuss a “proportionate” response.

Then we’ll build a hospital, a school, and an orphanage in Gaza, shower the entire strip with Euros, and start counting how many terrorists throw down their arms, abandon their entire Islamist ideology and join the world peace movement. We’ll all hold hands together around the campfire and sing “Kumbaya” instead of “Allahu Akbar”.

19. Daniel de França MTd2 - January 3, 2009

That is precisely what would happen. Everyone would hold hands together and sing.

20. Israeli - January 3, 2009

Yes Tommaso, I know that it is your bolg and you can put here whatever you like. I just wanted to point on your double moral standards, on the biased way you judge the Israelis, on how you make the victim an aggressor and the aggressor a victim with some verbal acrobatics, on your lack of integrity in these manners.

“It is about vengeance” – no, you got it plain wrong. It is all about the obvious right to live a normal life. We do not need license from hypocrites to earn this right.

By the way, I am not that anonymous… After all I identified myself as an Israeli. Why don’t I expose my identity? perhaps one of the reasons is that I can express my anger without being politically correct, and even make awful spelling mistakes without ruin my reputation…

Since I know your blog quite well (I am also a physicist) and since I know that you do earned hight standards when it comes to your filed of expertize, I am asking you to be honest with yourself and think again and again on what I have said here. If you are not contaminated with antisemitism, you will certainly find my words worth remembering. Be honest with your self, make a Gedanken experiment, and put yourself and your family in a bombed town or Kibbutz in southern Israel. And then ask yourself what would you expect from the government to do in order to secure the lives of your family, in order to ensure your kids normal childhood. Do that and you will be surprised with your findings.

21. An Israeli Physicist - January 3, 2009

Dear Tommaso
I leave aside my anger…
Can you tell me of one country in this world who would suffer missiles shot at their citizens on a daily basis without responding with an excessive force after warning the terrorists again and again? Can you?
But please let us leave Physics aside….
There are 10s of Physicists members of the ATLAS collaboration.
Your blog is not supposed to be a political blog.
We certainly have differences in opinions.
My country is constantly struggling for its survival and yours does not…. but I never bring this struggle with me to CERN.
There I seach for the HIggs or SUSY hoping it will contribute a bit to the sanity in this world.
If you insist to be political I suggest you keep this beautiful blog in its own quantum shell and write in another place.
Please.

22. Israeli - January 3, 2009

Ptrslv72,

Try to understand. The state of Israel has been established in order to give the Jews a safe place to put their feet. The horrors of the Jewish holocaust are incomparable to any other holocaust in the history of mankind, and I know very well how much blood and misery and genocide actions other nations have been put to.

Anyway, the small state of Israel is being surrounded by hundreds of millions of hostile Arabs who express their will to destroy the state of Israel. You cannot therefore eliminate the morals of the holocaust from the policy of the government. And you cannot expect the Israeli to become once again victims of hatred and barbarity.

Yes, the holocaust and the persecutions in the diaspora are substantial part of the lives of the Israelis and a major cause in their defense policy. You don’t have to agree with any decision we make, but if you want to earn our attention to your critics, you must first put yourself in our shoes.

23. dorigo - January 3, 2009

Hi all,

Doug, you miss my point. To me no response is proportionate. I am a non-violent and I loathe the use of bombs. Period. I think the only pointed criticism you can move to this is that I have never been under enemy fire, and so my non-violence is easy for me, but I would have a different opinion under other circumstances. That may well be, but I hold that sanity of mind and rational thinking comes if one is free from that kind of pressure, not otherwise. In a sense, being involved in that conflict one way or another biases judgement, not otherwise.

Israeli #24, you overestimate your contribution here. What exactly was it so profound and groundbreaking that you said here which you think I have to ponder and ponder over ? That I pick the topics I wish to discuss here ? That living in a kibbutz is not all roses ? That I have used acrobatic dialectic ? Instead, you do not offer any convincing argument against the truth I exposed above: it is about vengeance. I report your words above once more, for those who have missed them:
“Anyway, you don’t want to see your beloved kids being killed, don’t you? Nither do we! And therefore we must react. This is a moral duty of the government to its citizens”
This is the logic of reactionary thinking. Not finding a solution, but revenge. With this logic, Israel will continue to be under the threat of the islamic world forever.

#25: I am fed up with people who say they are colleagues but who do not identify themselves. Chickens is not the word which best summarizes what I think of these contributions after all. Come out with your name and we can discuss, as I do oftentimes with people who share your view of things. Anyway, I do not understand what you mean with “please let us leave Physics aside”. This is a post about world politics, so what does physics have to do with it ? My blog is what I make it be, and certainly not what others tell me to make of it. You can even argue I am incorrectly using the exposure I acquired with the physics to discuss other things here, so what, would that be morally despicable ? Readers who think so are not obliged to stay. I think in three years here there have been bitter discussions about many topics, politics, religion, scientific debates on ID and evolutionism, equal opportunities, etc., but in the end nobody called each other names. It was all constructive in my opinion. Why should I leave my thoughts about an overreaction of Israel aside ? Because of 10 Atlas physicists ? Get real, and show your face, and we can discuss that too.

Cheers all,
T.

24. Ptrslv72 - January 3, 2009

Of course I can understand how the trauma of holocaust is still ingrained in Israel’s collective psyche, but I am tired of seeing it used as a wildcard to justify ANY aggressive policy. And I still don’t see how Tommaso’s comment on the ministers and generals could be labeled as “pure antisemitic” (BTW Tommaso, Israel’s prime minister is still Ehud Olmert. Tzipi Livni is foreign minister). Cheers, Ptrslv72

25. Israeli - January 3, 2009

Tommaso,

You are being told again and again were your integrity fails but you refuse to listen. I understand that you take for yourself the privilege to be pacifistic, the point is that you are a *one-sided* pacifistic namely, as long as the Islamic terrorists attack Israel you fill your mouth with water, but when the Israeli respond to protect their lives you accuse them of being like the Nazis. This is not just a failure of integrity, it is a failure of mind, or an extreme antisemitic ideology.

Few posts earlier you laughed at Lubos for trying to teach you how to interpret experimental results. Now you are making the very same mistake in politics. If you have any integrity left, I expect from you to apologize publicly for the awful comparison you made in this post. At least! Also for being dishonest and one-sided. Also for the mis-information (at least 2/3 of the killed and wounded in Gasa are terrorists, probably more than 80%).

Ptrslv72,

The general officers and leader of Israel do exactly what Tommaso would have expect them to do had they protect the lives of his beloved ones. Double standards for Jews and non-Jews is a pure antisemitic symptom, as we learned very well on our flesh.

26. Israeli - January 3, 2009

Dear Israeli Physicist, let us face it, Tommaso save no warm feelings for us. It is difficult to accept that a distinguished experimentalist falls in such a trap of dishonesty and inhumanity, but this is the way it is.

27. dorigo - January 3, 2009

Israeli #29,

I think you also fail to understand that those who criticize Israel’s foreign politics are not enemies, but friends. This you really cannot grasp, can you ? It is precisely because we are with you that we feel the need to say your leaders have to behave differently. Were I impartial, I would not frown at the military politics of Israel. It is precisely because I stand by the right of Israel to exist peacefully that I feel the right to criticize the way Olmert (thx ptrslv) and Livni manage their power and the consensus.

You act as if there was 100% consensus in Israel of the attacks. This is not true and you know it all too well. Are those who oppose the bombings in Israel antisemitic ? Give me a break, would you ?

About Lubos Motl, what mistake have I made ? I did not imply Motl was not an experimentalist and thus unfit to discuss cross sections: I just pointed at a very clear mistake he made. And I only laughed at him after repeatedly asking him to understand and trying to explain. I laughed at his stubbornness, which was obtuse.

#30, you are false and you know it.

Cheers all,
T.

28. unit - January 3, 2009
29. Fred - January 3, 2009

Dear Mr. Israeli,

Nobody here hates you but we certainly may pity your thoughts. All of your antisemitic accusations so far border on the absurd. But two of your final statements are absolutely insulting to all of us.

“Double standards for Jews and non-Jews is a pure antisemitic symptom, as we learned very well on our flesh.”
“Dear Israeli Physicist, let us face it, Tommaso save no warm feelings for us.”

Who is “us”, and what in the hell does “our” flesh mean? Is it “us” against the rest of “us”? And do we truly wallow in the fact that we can keep killing our enemy as they have killed us? I suppose you embrace “life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot” which is your moral root for supporting the current action against those that live in the Gaza sector. If this is the case, just say so and quit making ridiculous accusations at others. But let the record also show that the kill ratio is hovering around 100:1 for this specific military operation conducted by the Israeli forces. The wounded ratio and imposed destruction sends it off the charts.

From your post #4:
“I can assure you that the people of Israel are THE peace makers of all nations. For this reason they have been suffer persecutions like no other nation ever did.”

This with a number of your other statements says it all. You are suffering from a delusional disorder compounded with an extreme persecution complex. Accept the fact that you cannot emotionally disassociate yourself from your country’s situation and make any rational thoughts or comments concerning the matter. As of this moment, your mentality mirrors that of the extreme elements of Hamas. I hope you find peace in your heart for others in your lifetime.
Paz.

30. Israeli - January 3, 2009

Tommaso, with such friends who need enemies? You have just compared us to those who put six millions of us to death in ways that cannot be imagine. So what kind of a friend are you?!

I can assure you that there is almost a complete consensus in Israel about the military actions in Gaza. The only opponents come from the far-far left (you can count the percentages on no more than two fingers) and many Israeli Arabs who constantly show no loyalty to the country.

Finally, as you said yourself, Motl’s arrogance has led him to believe that he can bit an expert in his own field. Now, you sit there, in the other side of the Mediterranean, in a peaceful place, completely unaware of the enormous subtleties regarding the Jewish-Arab conflict, and make arrogant judgments based on biased and selective TV reports. Is this the way you crystallize opinions in science matters?? I am sure you don’t.

dorigo - January 3, 2009

I compared your leaders to killers, not your people. You are evidently unable to hold a pacate discussion, intent as you are at throwing accusations and trying to smear the image of the person you argue against. Also, the numbers you quote are rather wishful thinking: they are those that circulate in Israeli press, and we have learned to be wary of a country’s propaganda. I believe more some numbers circulated in foreign magazines, in the US for instance, which is not a unfriendly country to Israel.
In any case I admit it: I am not a true expert of the arab-israeli conflict, having read only Shlaim and Morris. But my judgement is absolute and does not need to rely on subtleties: the logic of eye for eye is stupid albeit quite human -inasmuch as humans are beasts.
Cheers,
T.

31. Israeli - January 3, 2009

Tommaso,

An eye for eye has never been a strategy nor a tactics for the IDF. As I said, and this can be easily checked against historical evidences, the Jews have always been the peacemakers of all nations (of the western civilization). Saying the opposite is a malicious lie, a distortion of the truth. On the other hand, our enemies in Gaza hold a different strategy: your values of freedom and life are nothing and therefore *your life should be taken for nothing*. Can’t you see that in your own eyes?!

The numbers I gave you are absolutely correct (but they will certainly change as the ground operation continues). But if you are a man of conspiracies, and you prefer to believe the propaganda of terrorists organizations, instead of accepting reliable information produced by a democrat free country, nothing will convince you.

By saying our leaders are killers you say that each and every one of us is a killer. You cannot escape this conclusion because we elected our leaders and we fully support their actions.

32. dorigo - January 3, 2009

Dear Israeli, don’t be naive – that is a mortal sin here. How can you claim that the news of a country involved in a military action are “absolutely correct” and unbiased in any way, and call “propaganda of terrorists” the other sources I mention from free press in the United States ?

About the syllogism you offer above, it is yours, not mine. Leaders are men and women, and they are responsible for their actions. When Milosevic or other war criminals are tried, it is not a whole people who goes on trial.

Cheers,
T.

33. An Israeli Physicist - January 3, 2009

dorigo
I am number 25
Of course I had a typo in my mail
I meant to say I do not take the politics to CERN with me
but by your reaction and your use of your blog
you certainly do it
So being in an influential position,
knowing me might influence your professional judgment of me…
That is why I do not want to reveal myself.
There are over 30 Isreli physicists in ATLAS and we have a major contribution, the ATLAS trigger muon TGC chambers…
So please do not underestimate us.
As for the situation, God helps me, for 8 years we suffer from missile attacks warning again and again…
You have no idea what you are talking about and what a moral army the Israeli army is.
Be good

34. dorigo - January 4, 2009

Hi Atlas trigger guy,

you are overestimating my influence! I am a small fish inside CMS, and inside Atlas I am nobody at all (although I did referee a grant proposal of an Atlas guy last year, hehm -but I did well: I advised to grant him more money than he was asking!).

In any case, you are basically saying I am unfair, and I would use my power in my job to take revenge of a disagreement with colleagues over political matters. I reject that accusation with all my might. I am grateful of the comments I receive in my blog, the more so if they disagree with me -much more interesting than agreeing! And I repeat it here: many of my friends are jews and they are not far from your positions.

Of course I am not underestimating the israeli contribution to Atlas, what would make you think that ?

And maybe I have no idea of what I am talking about, but my claim is that having no idea of the details and being untouched by missile attacks allows my judgement on the whole issue to be more balanced than yours.

Cheers,
T.

35. Diego Tonelli - January 4, 2009

“[..] This is a manipulating and deceptive question! The Israeli army is doing everything it can *not* to hit civilians, beyond anything done by any army in the world, in any place around the globe. It is Hamas who target civilians as a policy (which hasn’t been condemned by you so far despite the fact that they do it for years causing hundreds of casualties). So much ethic is the IDF, that they make a phone-calls to the terrorists families before bombing, asking everyone to evacuate in order to save their lives. Why bombing? because the houses being bombed serve as reservoirs of rockets, or bases of terrorists attacks. Palestinian civilians are being killed because Hamas is using them as human protection.”

MIDEAST-PALESTINIAN-ISRAEL-GAZA-CONFLICT

“[..]The civilians are supporting the terrorist authority there. Their suffering is a direct consequence of their supporting.”

MIDEAST ISRAEL PALESTINIANS

“[..] The action in Gasa should be morally supported by any peacemaker in the world. It is an action against evil, violence, aggression, cultural regression and more…”

PALESTINIANS-ISRAEL/

“[..] (at least 2/3 of the killed and wounded in Gasa are terrorists, probably more than 80%).”

PALESTINIANS-ISRAEL/

“[..]The general officers and leader of Israel do exactly what Tommaso would have expect them to do had they protect the lives of his beloved ones.”

PALESTINIANS-ISRAEL/

“[…]The compassion you feel for the Palestinians in Gaza can be compared to the compassion expressed by some `moral people’ to the German Nazis during the fall of the 2-nd war,”

APTOPIX MIDEAST ISRAEL PALESTINIANS
AK0001_GAZA_

36. Israeli - January 4, 2009

To saint Diego Tonelli

I understand that you are fund of snuff. But only that kind of snuff associated with dead Palestinian kids. Because, I did not notice any Israeli-kids-torn-apart-bodies in your art collection.

It is interesting to note that the poor kids in these picture died only 5 years before sent by their parents to explode in markets in order to become Shahid and give pride to all the family.

However, since you are a true saint, save some compassion for these kids also:

http://sderot.aish.com/SderotPetitions/15Seconds.php

And finally, If some gray cells are left in your holly brain, you must have known that these pictures says nothing about the IDF moral standards. We do anything to prevent such cases. They do anything they can to make them happen. And `saints` like you are certainly helpful for the holly cause.

37. Ptrslv72 - January 4, 2009

What’s most interesting in Diego Tonelli’s post is the tidy summary of your extremist rhetoric (but the latest “kill them before they grow” tops it all). Frankly, I don’t see much difference from the extremist rhetoric of the other side. I take comfort in the thought that not all Israelis (and certainly not all Jews) share your point of view. Cheers Ptrslv72

38. Mario - January 4, 2009

Hi,

I was about to write a comment myself on this blog, but then, this morning I found an interesting analysis article on the web edition of the New York Times. Although being very moderate in its tones, it spreads many legitimate and rational concerns about the Israeli action in Gaza, either from a humanitarian and also from a pragmatic point of view:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/04/world/middleeast/04assess.html?_r=1&hp

I hope that it can be the basis for a more pacific confrontation, and that can help Israelis (speaking of commenters’ nicknames here) understand some of the reasons of those who are critical or against the military actions in the Gaza strip.

My 2 cents,
Mario.

39. anonymous - January 5, 2009

Israeli,

you should go back 60 years before to understand why Palestiniens
are (or have to) fighting to get back their earth…
In addition Israel didn’t respect at all the international laws,
have a look at:
http://alidahmash.blogspot.com/2008/10/love-story-united-nations-and-israel.html

40. changcho - January 6, 2009

Israel is committing war crimes, and they are going to get away with it. Where is their moral compass?

41. Anonymous - January 6, 2009

FYI, the anonymous above is not me, just another anonymous person of that name. I myself agree with Mario’s post above!

42. An Israeli Physicist - January 7, 2009

There is no army in the world that is more moral than the Israeli army.
When the Hamas gunmen surround themselves with children and shoot missiles on citizens in Israel, they leave us no choice.
Now they are also hiding in hospitals…
Where is their moral compass?
If they would not shoot missiles at us from the first place they would have saved the life of all who sie in this terrible war.
But they refuse to stop.
They carry 100% of the blame.
Please have a look at this before you respond.

dorigo - January 7, 2009

Hi,

and have you looked at this ?
https://dorigo.wordpress.com/2008/07/21/your-daily-dose-of-violence/
Now how do you qualify shooting a prisoner in the leg, is it a moral thing to do ?

Cheers,
T.

43. An Israeli Physicist - January 8, 2009

Hi
Couldnt you see it was a fake?
The picture is blurry as there is a shot
and then the guy is on the ground…
If its not a fake (but I am sure it is) I am sure the soldier is now in jail….
But here is something which is obviously not a fake
and I am sure it will make you undewrstand a bit better why you are soooooo wrong
See how your palestinian friends force a child to be a human shield
http://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&ik=45eb76e7d3&view=att&th=11eb56e1ed839d5e&attid=0.1&disp=attd&realattid=0.1&zw
All the best….
And I wish you will never have to face islam terror…

dorigo - January 8, 2009

Israeli, the picture was cut by myself from a movie. I saw the whole sequence, complete with audio, and it is not a fake.
Whether the soldier, his commander, or both are in jail, it is unimportant. The video shows you are a bit delusional on the moral qualities of your army soldiers.

Cheers,
T.

PS also read the comments above.

PPS your link points to a gmail account and is unreadable.

44. An Israeli Physicist - January 8, 2009

Unfortunately I do not know how to attach the movie… so I noticed you cannot trace my link
But I will try to find a way….

45. An Israeli Physicist - January 8, 2009

Unfortunately I do not know how to attach the movie… so I noticed you cannot trace my link
But I will try to find a way….
Can you tekll me how to attach a movie?

46. dorigo - January 8, 2009

… Also, I keep wondering whether you really want the world to judge jews and arabs for their military or paramilitary actions. As I told you, I am not putting the IDF on the same ground, since I am still hoping they can act with more humanity than their terrorist counterparts. You respond by quoting what “they” do. Do you understand that this attempt at showing Israel is different is causing everybody to see you and your enemies are alike ?

Cheers,
T.

47. An Israeli Physicist - January 8, 2009

What are yoy talking about?
I watched the movie
At the moment the soldier is “supposed ” to shoot
the movie is blurred….
You fell into a propaganda trick
I do not see any sodier clearly shooting
Have you watched a different movie?

dorigo - January 8, 2009

The episode is not only documented in the video: it has been discussed in the media after the video was released, and the soldier has been incriminated. You did not check the sources, nor read the comments in the thread of the post where I discuss it.

Cheers,
T.

48. dorigo - January 8, 2009

Israeli physicist,

maybe you will believe Fox news if you do not believe me:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,387762,00.html

In any case, I am done discussing with you, because you do not show a bit of trust. Think back over the ways you tried to evade the evidence you were shown, and over your words about the israeli army being the most moral in the world.

Cheers,
T.

49. anonymous - January 8, 2009

Isreali,

‘There is no army in the world that is more moral than the Israeli
army’
Army fighting with children and womens!!!!
I think that the physics didn’t help you too much to understand
‘correctly’ ( I assume that you are honest…)
look for example at :

50. dorigo - January 8, 2009

Also check what The Independent reports today (1/8):

The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) said its officials and Palestinian ambulance workers had found four starving children huddled with at least 12 corpses in Gaza in a house 80 metres from an Israeli military position.

Among the dead in the house, found lying on mattresses, were the children’s mothers, the ICRC said.

In nearby houses in Gaza’s devastated Zeitoun neighbourhood, the team found another three corpses and 15 survivors, including several who were wounded, the Geneva-based agency said.

It accused Israel of delaying ambulance access to the area and said the Israeli army must have been aware of the situation but did not help the wounded, in violation of international law.

“This is a shocking incident,” said Pierre Wettach, ICRC chief for Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories.

The Israeli military said it would investigate any formal complaint against its conduct, but said it had “demonstrated its willingness to abort operations to save civilian lives and to risk injury on order to assist innocent civilians”.

I wonder what “moral standards” are those praised by some commenters of this thread…

Cheers,
T.

51. Ehud, proud Israeli - January 8, 2009

Dear Dorigo,
I understand that you are a physicist. Being a scientist should mean that you are supposed to know the facts before forming an opinion. But not if one is anti-Israeli!
How dare you compare the industrial extermination of Jews in WWII at a rate of 12,000/day, to the killing of 400 Palestinians most of them are armed and dangerous. How can you compare extermination of a whole unarmed civilian population without any provocation, to an attack on armed forces, like Hamas, who constantly attack Israel that results in the death of nearby civilians? Where were you during the last few years when Israeli cities and villages were shelled on a daily basis by Hamas? Where were you when the Hamas placed their ammunition warehouses in schools, their Kasam launchers in kindergartens and their headquarters in hospitals? This it a violation of the Geneva covenant, not the Israeli attacks on these targets.
You raise the issue of the soldier who fired a rubber bullet right to a Palestinian foot. Unfortunately this is true. However, this is the exception in the Israeli army. The soldier serves now time in jail. The commanding officer was tried and had to disgracefully leave the army. But Samir Kuntar, a terrorist who killed with bare hands a little girl and her father, and who was released from Israeli jail few months ago was received as a national Palestinian hero. Where were you then?
Read the Hamas covenant and see what their goal is. Maybe you agree I shall not be surprised. As long as people like you support their horrible activities they won’t give up. They will keep attacking Israel, no matter how peaceful we are, and we will have to defend ourselves. You see, the difference between the holocaust that you like so much, and now is that now we can fight back !
Ehud

52. anonymous - January 9, 2009

Ehud,
I (and evry one) agree that killing children or womens is a
barbarian act…
but let me ask a question:
which reaction do you expect from nation/people on the Military
occupation and colonization of the West Bank (including East
Jerusalem) and Gaza since 1967, in violation of international law
and UN resolutions??
Do you expect flowers from them??

As you know since 1948, hundreds of UN resolutions have condemned Israel’s colonial and discriminatory policies as illegal and called for immediate, adequate and effective remedies, and Given that all forms of international intervention and peace-making have until now failed to convince or force Israel to comply with humanitarian law, to respect fundamental human rights and to end its occupation and oppression of the people of Palestine

53. Ehud, proud Israeli - January 10, 2009

No, I do not expect the Arabs to ‘flower’ Israel.
I’ll skip issues like “Is there indeed a Palestinian people?”; “Is Israel in violation of the international law by staying in the ‘territories’?”; “What is the moral value of UN resolutions?”; “Is the Arab reaction to the so-called ‘occupation’ justified?”, and the most important one: “Will a complete Israeli withdrawal to the 67 lines result in peace?” My answers presumably differ from yours. I’ll just focus here on the goal of the Palestinian struggle. Are they fighting to become autonomous? No, pm. Begin in 1979 granted them full autonomy (the Basques in Spain would love to achieve that). Do they want to be completely independent? Pm. Rabin in 93 promised them full independence in five years. Do they want all the area that was taken by Israel in 67? Pm. Barak, in 2000 offered them 97% of the area and was willing to compensate them for the 3% loss by transferring to them Israeli area near Gaza. So, what do they want?
You may have difficulty in accepting my answer: They want the complete annihilation of Israel. You hear and see their leaders saying other things. That is partially correct, but if you care to read the PLO and Hamas covenants you see their explicit calls for the destruction of Israel and the expulsion (in the good case) of its Jewish inhabitants. If you listen to the Arabic media you will notice the same, Israel must be annihilated. If you read their school textbooks and see how they educate their youngsters you see that they are thought that Jews are pigs and apes and Israel must be destroyed. If you study their religion you see that area which was once under Muslim control must stay under their control forever.
What should we accept, the speeches of their leaders, or their culture? Let me remind you that the Arabs are the real masters of negotiations (Just look how Europe fails to stop Iran from developing nuclear weapons). They know that the West dislikes calls for the destruction of Israel. So they do what the west likes most: saying that they crave for peace with Israel. Mind you, they never say it in Arabic, only in English.
You live somewhere in Europe or the US exposed to the media with all the biases. You don’t see things as we see them from here.
Now let’s look at the Israeli side: Israel is should be anxious to achieve peace. If Israel loses a single war it will cease to exist. So, why does Israel fight? Does Israel want to expand? Well, it handed to Egypt an area 3 times as big as the whole of Israel in order to achieve peace. So why does Israel fight?
We have no choice. For over 7 years Israeli cities and villages are constantly being attacks from Gaza. Being desperate to reach some agreement we pulled out unilaterally from Gaza. It didn’t stop the rockets. What do you expect us to do?

54. Mario - January 10, 2009

You may have difficulty in accepting my answer: They want the complete annihilation of Palestinian people. You hear and see their leaders saying other things. That is partially correct, but if you care to read the Kadima and Yisrael Beiteinu covenants you see their explicit calls for the destruction of Territories governed by the Palestinian Authority and the expulsion (in the good case) of its Palestinian inhabitants. If you listen to the Israeli media you will notice the same, Palestinians must be annihilated. If you read their school textbooks and see how they educate their youngsters you see that they are thought that Palestinians are pigs and apes and Palestinian Authority must be destroyed. If you study their religion you see that area which was once under Jewish control must stay under their control forever.
What should we accept, the speeches of their leaders, or their culture? Let me remind you that the Jewish are the real masters of negotiations (Just look how Europe failed to stop Israel from developing nuclear weapons). They know that the West dislikes calls for the destruction of Palestine. So they do what the west likes most: saying that they crave for peace with Palestinians. Mind you, they never say it in Hebrew, only in English.
You live somewhere in Europe or the US exposed to the media with all the biases. You don’t see things as Palestinians see them from the Occupied Territories.
Now let’s look at the Palestinian side: Palestine is should be (sic.) anxious to achieve peace. If Palestinian Authority loses a single war it will cease to exist. So, why does Palestinians fight? Does Palestinian Authority want to expand? Well, it recognized the right of the state of Israel to exist, and signed the Oslo Accords in 1993, accepting a plan that could have granted them full independence in 5 years, in order to achieve peace. (But then, one year later, a Jewish fundamentalist killed almost 50 Palestinians at the Cave of Patriarchs, and two years later, the Israeli leader who signed the accords was killed by another Jewish fundamentalist who opposed the Accords, thus demonstrating that Israel did not want the peace with Palestine). So why does Palestine fight?
They have no choice. For over 40 years Gaza cities and villages are constantly being attacks (sic) and occupied from Israel, their economy choked and their people considered criminals. Being desperate to reach some agreement, Hamas accepted a 6-months cease fire with Israel. It didn’t stop the Israeli control of Gaza borders, Gaza coasts and Gaza air space, and their plans for a military operation to annihilate Gaza leaders. What do you expect them to do?

55. Mario - January 10, 2009

Dear Ehud, proud Israeli,

I hope that you can now see how fallacious your reasoning is.

A hint: spreading cheap racism is not impressing anyone, neither is helping you.

Yours truly,

Mario

56. Ehud, proud Israeli - January 11, 2009

Are you also a physicist? If so you should treat symmetries with greater respect.
I’ll assume, for a tiny moment that you are not anti-Semitic. If so, your opinion is based on what you consider to be facts , and if I can prove to you that these ‘facts’ are nothing more than cheap propaganda – you will change your mind.
You say “if you care to read the Kadima and Yisrael Beiteinu covenants you see their explicit calls for the destruction of Territories governed by the Palestinian Authority and the expulsion (in the good case) of its Palestinian inhabitants. “
Did you read these documents? I know you never did because I did, and there is nothing like that. Moreover, once Israel had a party that called for a forced expulsion of the Arab population. This party was de-legitimized by the Supreme Court and ceased to exist. Israel Beitenu calls for territory exchanges, namely, exchange of region in Israel in which only Arab live with regions in the west bank in which only Jews live. Please compare that with the Hamas covenant at http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp articles 6, 11, 13,32 & 33 in particular.
As for Kadima, I failed to find an English document. Let me first tell you that in last month’s internal election, 1/3 of Kadima voters were Arabs. Are they crazy? My translation of the preamble to their covenant is “The main goal of the party is to preserve Israel as a safe haven for the Jewish people, while granting equal rights to the minorities [i.e. Arabs] who live in it. The party will strive to push forward the peace process on the basis of the road-map plan…. Is there a symmetry between Kadima and Hamas?
You say “If you listen to the Israeli media you will notice the same, Palestinians must be annihilated.” Did you ever listen to the English broadcasts of the Israeli radio? You surely did not. Please go to http://www.kol-israel.com/ and you’ll have a true picture of Israeli media. Go to http://www.memri.org/ and you’ll see the Arab media. Had anybody in the Israeli press been calling for the annihilation of the Palestinians, he/she would be sacked and prosecuted in no time (see, e.g. the case of Tatiana Suskin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatiana_Soskin). Symmetry? No thank you.
You further say “If you read their school textbooks and see how they educate their youngsters you see that they are thought that Palestinians are pigs and apes and Palestinian Authority must be destroyed.” I am part of a group who studied the text books of both sides. So give me a break! Look e.g. at http://www.pmw.org.il/BookReport_Eng.pdf. If you ask a random kid in the streets of Israel, even in the areas under fire, what they want most – the answer will be peace. Try asking the same question in an Arab neighborhood… Symmetry?
Finally you say “If you study their religion you see that area which was once under Jewish control must stay under their control forever” here my assumption of you not being anti-Semitic is shattered. This is Nazi propaganda. We, the nation who gave the world liberty, equal right to everybody, banished slavery including for non-Jewish, and introduced welfare to all; we don’t have to answer such statements.
But you keep with your frenzy. You say:
“Palestinian Authority loses a single war it will cease to exist. “My un-dear Mario, they lost a few wars and they are still there. They did not cease to exist. They know that we will never annihilate them, for moral reasons, so they have nothing to lose. But you do not care about the truth, right? You have a different agenda, do you?
Now it becomes interesting: you write “Does Palestinian Authority want to expand? Well, it recognized the right of the state of Israel to exist, and signed the Oslo Accords in 1993” Yes they did. And indeed a Israeli criminal killed (29, mind you, which is also a horrible count) Arabs shortly after this accord was signed. Unlike the Arabs in their terror acts against Jews, Israel unanimously condemned this act. No one thought of supporting this murdered, just like nobody supported the idiot who killed Rabin. As I wrote before – you make up your opinion on Israel by looking at its criminals. But you claim for symmetry, so look at the Arab reaction to terror acts in Israel. Did you ever hear a condemnation? Or maybe you saw the Arabs crowds singing and dancing when a bus exploded in Tel-Aviv killing its 40 passengers? I guess you didn’t see it, I wonder why.

The climax of you truth distortion is the saved for the end. Mind you, Israel opened the border and even established a common industrial zone at the border with Gaza. It withdrew its forces and painfully transferred 10,000 Israelis out of Gaza strip. It kept, and even now keeps supplying Gaza with electricity, water, food and medications. The Israeli army did not enter Gaza nor did it shell or bomb the strip for almost two years. During this period more than a 1000 rockets were fired on Israel. The main sanction against the rockets was the closure of the border. Is this over reacting? Who should you condemn – well I know, condemn the Jew!
Let’s finish with a gedanken experiment: suppose Israel has enough power to annihilate the Palestinians, what shall it do? Now let’s assume the opposite, that the Arabs have the military power to annihilate Israel – what shall they do?

57. anonymous - January 11, 2009

Ehud,

“That is partially correct, but if you care to read the PLO and
Hamas covenants you see their explicit calls for the destruction
of Israel”

you should remember that Israel was suporting some time ago the
SAME Hamas against OLP…

” Now let’s look at the Israeli side: Israel is should be anxious to
achieve peace. If Israel loses a single war”

Israel has already lost war in Liban2006 and all the war
experts expect Israel to lose again in Gaza ( I don’t see you
able to fight with Iran…)

“What do you expect them to do?”

You should be honnest in peace, stop colonization,
give palestinians their land (from 67). Anyway you don’t have
choice, after the current war you will see that Hamas is still
able to send roquets…so the only way is to negociate…

58. Ehud, proud Israeli - January 11, 2009

Dear Anonymous,
I tried to post a detailed answer to Mario. For some reason I don’t see it on the blog. Is there a length limit? (it was a bit long🙂 )
Once posted, it should , I hope, answer some of the points.
As for what you just said: No, we didn’t lose a war. We failed to stop the rockets, and we didn’t stand up to our expectations. When I say war, I mean war. The existence of Israel was in danger in 48, 67 and 73 which were real wars. Losing such a war will be fatal for us.
You see, you are also misinformed. You say “give Palestinians their land (from 67)” but this is bluntly wrong, a legend invented by the Arabs. There was no Palestinian state prior to 67, nor was there such a state ever. Moreover, the people living in the west bank and Gaza never strove to become independent. The fact is that we were attacked in 67 from these very regions. They attack and lost the war. The international low accepts border corrections after such a war (see e.g. the areas lost by Germany, Hungary, and Japan after WWII), but not when Israel is involved.
But we do not insist on staying in these areas. We pulled out of Gaza to the 67 line. We painfully forced 10,000 Israelis to abandon their home there. I already mentioned that Barak offered also a withdrawal from 97% of the west bank. What do you expect more? What colonization are you talking about? Do you realize the size of the area? a 0.001 of the Arab world!
You may be right. Maybe we won’t be able to stop the rockets. But go and blame the Arabs for that. Tell them that in the 21st century such disputes are solved by negotiation. Tell them that rocketing cities is unacceptable.
Let me remind you that as a result of the latest Israeli operation in Gaza, we had a truce for six months. The truce ended about a month ago and Israel was more than willing to extend it. However, the Hamas, who fired on Israel throughout the truce, intensified its attacks. Only after being hit by 80 rockets/day Israel responded. The prime obligation of a country is to protect its citizens from external attacks. Somehow, when Israel is involved, this is not obvious.
I wonder why!
Ehud


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